What does Butch do?

#1
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volnpowell

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#1
Will he be loyal to Martinez or get Shoop "his" guys?

I think most would agree Martinez as been weak spot since he has been here and with rumblings of defense coaches not agreeing on things just curious what you all predict Butch does.

I know some have not been impressed with Shoop, but I have a few points on that.

1. Martinez got fired at Georgia so not great reputation when hired.

2. Shoop proven track record

3. Before injuries he made great second half adjustments.

Also with the comment from Hubbs I think, said Shoop wants smaller DT that is why Gaddy bros were told to look somewhere else, that he is sticking with Shoop, but Butch could just be giving excuses or something about that situation.

Not sure about Thigpen

He his great recruiter, but not sure how good position coach he is.
 
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#3
#3
Talent triumphs recruiting. Nothing worse than a 5* CB or LB out of position to make a play and wasting their God-given talents.

Besides coaches who can develop NFL caliber players don't really need to recruit as much because of their reputation and track record.
 
#5
#5
BEFORE any staff changes, first thing he does is address BS in media today from McElroy, SDS, etc on articles last two days about him. If he doesn't go all Tony Montana on them, it's a mistake.
3beb6f37a6eb4a9c4fce817ab4396b53bdd0f5ecf9234cbcdcb6ec1b0133bbcc.jpg
 
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#6
#6
volnpowell said:
Will he be loyal to Martinez or get Shoop "his" guys?

I think most would agree Martinez as been weak spot since he has been here and with rumblings of defense coaches not agreeing on things just curious what you all predict Butch does.

I know some have not been impressed with Shoop, but I have a few points on that.

1. Martinez got fired at Georgia so not great reputation when hired.

2. Shoop proven track record

3. Before injuries he made great second half adjustments.

Also with the comment from Hubbs I think, said Shoop wants smaller DT that is why Gaddy bros were told to look somewhere else, that he is sticking with Shoop, but Butch could just be giving excuses or something about that situation.

Not sure about Thigpen

He his great recruiter, but not sure how good position coach he is.
Click to expand...


To expand on Shoop ...he coaches a 43 single gap defense. A single gap system has each of the front seven responsible for a gap ...as opposed to a two gap system where the front seven are responsible for a player . The linemen typically tie up a blocker and the backers roam free to make the plays . Also Shoop prefers to play NFL style and leave the 43 on the field on 'possible' passing downs ( not third and long ) where it could be pass or run regardless of how many receivers are on the field. So if there are three receivers ...the OLB steps out and covers the extra receiver. No worries though ..he should not have to play man because Shoop imploys mostly zones, especially quarters which many have referred to as 'cover 2' in absolute error .

So why did his defense suck so bad ? Injuries . Period . And here is why. To play a one gap scheme like this , the front has to be aggressive and fast to attack and break the gaps beating the offense to the gap. We have one DT and the other DTs are manned by backup defensive ends. The interior is getting blown up. 2 gaps are blown by this failure. Since the OLB , or 'star' player is the focal point and allows the defense to not switch personnel groupings ...the loss of JRM was huge from a strategic POV , because not he has to switch groupings and gives up the element of defensive scheme and suprise. They now know you are in a nickle so they will run on those 'tweener' downs.

So when the scheme is running optimally, the secondary is operating in zones. This requires the front pressure front the fast free flowing 1 gap system. Now you are not getting that . The front is having to shift resources from other gaps to compensate for the f'd up A & B gap inside . The 'star' player is not picking up receivers , backs, TE's because he is flowing to a gap. You have 8 different combos of secondary players playing man with no pressure from the front .

All of this turmoil and Shoop cant bring the magic with his exotic fire blitzes , scrapes, and zone traps ...because the injuries have left this defense with no gap control.

I have to give Shoop a pass this year. The injuries have hit his philosophy where it hurts and I can see no way he could have corrected it with the personnel / injury issues .

Will hold judgement until next year
 
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#7
#7
HuntlandVolinColo said:
Talent triumphs recruiting. Nothing worse than a 5* CB or LB out of position to make a play and wasting their God-given talents.

Besides coaches who can develop NFL caliber players don't really need to recruit as much because of their reputation and track record.
Click to expand...

Its funny ...they top teams in the country are typically the top notch recruiting teams in the country. Alabama has had the number 1 class for 8 years now. The only team that I can recall that was an anomaly to this was Osbournes Cornhuskers ...but his S&C programs may have had some advantages that others didn't and his offense was a foreign language to most DC's . Florida , Miami , FSU , Ohio State , even our Vols were recruiting powerhouses in the 90's. So yeah ...you have to develop players but history says if you want to win big you have to recruit big.
 
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#8
#8
volnpowell said:
Will he be loyal to Martinez or get Shoop "his" guys?

I think most would agree Martinez as been weak spot since he has been here and with rumblings of defense coaches not agreeing on things just curious what you all predict Butch does.

I know some have not been impressed with Shoop, but I have a few points on that.

1. Martinez got fired at Georgia so not great reputation when hired.

2. Shoop proven track record

3. Before injuries he made great second half adjustments.

Also with the comment from Hubbs I think, said Shoop wants smaller DT that is why Gaddy bros were told to look somewhere else, that he is sticking with Shoop, but Butch could just be giving excuses or something about that situation.

Not sure about Thigpen

He his great recruiter, but not sure how good position coach he is.
Click to expand...

majic73 said:
To expand on Shoop ...he coaches a 43 single gap defense. A single gap system has each of the front seven responsible for a gap ...as opposed to a two gap system where the front seven are responsible for a player . The linemen typically tie up a blocker and the backers roam free to make the plays . Also Shoop prefers to play NFL style and leave the 43 on the field on 'possible' passing downs ( not third and long ) where it could be pass or run regardless of how many receivers are on the field. So if there are three receivers ...the OLB steps out and covers the extra receiver. No worries though ..he should not have to play man because Shoop imploys mostly zones, especially quarters which many have referred to as 'cover 2' in absolute error .

So why did his defense suck so bad ? Injuries . Period . And here is why. To play a one gap scheme like this , the front has to be aggressive and fast to attack and break the gaps beating the offense to the gap. We have one DT and the other DTs are manned by backup defensive ends. The interior is getting blown up. 2 gaps are blown by this failure. Since the OLB , or 'star' player is the focal point and allows the defense to not switch personnel groupings ...the loss of JRM was huge from a strategic POV , because not he has to switch groupings and gives up the element of defensive scheme and suprise. They now know you are in a nickle so they will run on those 'tweener' downs.

So when the scheme is running optimally, the secondary is operating in zones. This requires the front pressure front the fast free flowing 1 gap system. Now you are not getting that . The front is having to shift resources from other gaps to compensate for the f'd up A & B gap inside . The 'star' player is not picking up receivers , backs, TE's because he is flowing to a gap. You have 8 different combos of secondary players playing man with no pressure from the front .

All of this turmoil and Shoop cant bring the magic with his exotic fire blitzes , scrapes, and zone traps ...because the injuries have left this defense with no gap control.

I have to give Shoop a pass this year. The injuries have hit his philosophy where it hurts and I can see no way he could have corrected it with the personnel / injury issues .

Will hold judgement until next year
Click to expand...

Well done!

How 'bout a synopsis regarding the loss of O'Brien, Tuttle and Mckenzie as it relates to early down situations where we are trying to be multiple.

I'm being serious, not sarcastic in anyway.

TIA
 
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#10
#10
Maybe it would have been a better question, more precise...even versus odd fronts...apologies.
 
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#11
#11
vol66 said:
Well done!

How 'bout a synopsis regarding the loss of O'Brien, Tuttle and Mckenzie as it relates to early down situations where we are trying to be multiple.

I'm being serious, not sarcastic in anyway.

TIA
Click to expand...

Ill take a shot at it and if you want to add something , I would love to here your observations. Always want to learn

Without those three, I believe 30 type fronts were out of the question . None of the guys left after the onslaught of injuries are big enough to play nose or two gap. I line of thought I have heard is to go three down 5 LBs or some hybrid of that nature. Doing that would have effectively nullified Barnett and Vereen and probably gotten one of the LBs or safeties hurt ...there is nothing in the middle. With the lack of interior play nothing really works . The offense will control the interior with minimal resources and will flex resource out to barnett , vereen or any LB or safety that you walk up. If you go heavy with a 44 or 52 ( which we did at Vandy some ) you are getting no pressure and leaving receivers in man coverage for far to long .

I think the only thing that could maybe have been done better was some in play stuff. More movement on the front , last moment shifts . Stand guys up and flip alignments last moment. Try to screw up the blocking scheme and QB concentration . Stunts stems twists overload one side and funnel . Walk guys into the box and then jail break them back into coverage to try to set the bait and confuse. Send offensive linemen out there to block theirs and just let the LBs run. That is truly how desperate the defense was at that point ...where Shoop really could not have had a bad idea.

I think to be the elite defensive unit that many fantasize about us being ...we need about 6 O'Brien, Tuttle and Mckenzies and some good DE's to match . Whatever our offensive philosophy ...they cant leave the defesne on the field for 930 snaps. If their identity is up tempo , explosive fine ....but you have to pack it in some and have some 7 minute drives that produce points and keep the D off the field.

More than you asked ...but I need to get that stuff off my chest . :ermm:
 
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#12
#12
majic73 said:
Ill take a shot at it and if you want to add something , I would love to here your observations. Always want to learn

Without those three, I believe 30 type fronts were out of the question . None of the guys left after the onslaught of injuries are big enough to play nose or two gap. I line of thought I have heard is to go three down 5 LBs or some hybrid of that nature. Doing that would have effectively nullified Barnett and Vereen and probably gotten one of the LBs or safeties hurt ...there is nothing in the middle. With the lack of interior play nothing really works . The offense will control the interior with minimal resources and will flex resource out to barnett , vereen or any LB or safety that you walk up. If you go heavy with a 44 or 52 ( which we did at Vandy some ) you are getting no pressure and leaving receivers in man coverage for far to long .

I think the only thing that could maybe have been done better was some in play stuff. More movement on the front , last moment shifts . Stand guys up and flip alignments last moment. Try to screw up the blocking scheme and QB concentration . Stunts stems twists overload one side and funnel . Walk guys into the box and then jail break them back into coverage to try to set the bait and confuse. Send offensive linemen out there to block theirs and just let the LBs run. That is truly how desperate the defense was at that point ...where Shoop really could not have had a bad idea.

I think to be the elite defensive unit that many fantasize about us being ...we need about 6 O'Brien, Tuttle and Mckenzies and some good DE's to match . Whatever our offensive philosophy ...they cant leave the defesne on the field for 930 snaps. If their identity is up tempo , explosive fine ....but you have to pack it in some and have some 7 minute drives that produce points and keep the D off the field.

More than you asked ...but I need to get that stuff off my chest . :ermm:
Click to expand...

No, that is awesome. I'm watching some PSU vs. # 12 Michigan 2015 right now and I'm seeing stuff we just haven't run...obviously I'll have to watch more and I'm an offense guy...small sample size, Shoop seems like a 4-3 guy, have yet to see a 3-4, so I was off base on my question to begin with at least so far.

But, when you lose those three guys plus the LB's we lost, I think we agree, it's smoke and mirrors and that's gonna get you burned eventually.

I appreciate your comments and apologize for sending you down mystery lane.
 
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#13
#13
vol66 said:
Maybe it would have been a better question, more precise...even versus odd fronts...apologies.
Click to expand...

Just saw this . Again , I really dont think you can go with an odd front without your defensive tackles . I think Tuttle was a guy that could make this work. Not sure if by design or its just how he plays and offenses gave him plenty of attention , he tied up blockers. Without a bull in the middle ....just wouldn't see it working .

I think the even fronts were our best bet after the injuries ...but we bled out in that case too.
I dont think the odds would have worked well after the injuries

Maybe throw some hybrid junk , exotic stuff out there . Its couldn't have failed worse.

I think shoop , when he has a healthy unit will be very exotic , multiple and aggressive . I think our secondary will look like a new unit when they are playing with a front that is bringing pressure
 
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#14
#14
vol66 said:
No, that is awesome. I'm watching some PSU vs. # 12 Michigan 2015 right now and I'm seeing stuff we just haven't run...obviously I'll have to watch more and I'm an offense guy...small sample size, Shoop seems like a 4-3 guy, have yet to see a 3-4, so I was off base on my question to begin with at least so far.

But, when you lose those three guys plus the LB's we lost, I think we agree, it's smoke and mirrors and that's gonna get you burned eventually.

I appreciate your comments and apologize for sending you down mystery lane.
Click to expand...

Anytime Vol66. I love the game and love to bounce stuff off of people that understand the game ! For the record , I think Shoop got put in a bad situation and did all he can do . I feel like alot of that is on the offensive style, philosophy...leaving the defense on the field 930 snaps. There was a point where the defense was still mostly intact and the offense is out there running tempo. I think Butch has to slow the game down offensively in this situation . Hind sight is 20/20 though
 
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#15
#15
majic73 said:
Anytime Vol66. I love the game and love to bounce stuff off of people that understand the game ! For the record , I think Shoop got put in a bad situation and did all he can do . I feel like alot of that is on the offensive style, philosophy...leaving the defense on the field 930 snaps. There was a point where the defense was still mostly intact and the offense is out there running tempo. I think Butch has to slow the game down offensively in this situation . Hind sight is 20/20 though
Click to expand...

I agree with you. You hire a guy because of what he accomplished at Vandy and PSU. You don't allow him to bring his own guys, you ask him not to change the terminology, you force his new assistants who were hired under a different coordinator to buy into a new philosophy and to teach things in a new way...then you have catastrophic injuries to the guys.

That's why it looked like that at the end of the season. Hard to overcome, but that's just my opinion and defensively I need to get better, so my opinion ain't worth much, but I appreciate yours greatly. Thanks!

As far as the offense and tempo. I'm being overly simplistic. You can't go three and out 5 times a game, you can't turn the ball over and you can't have pre-snap penalties on early downs without putting the defense in bad position.This works in tandem with special teams where our punter has probably been the least valued player on the roster over the last couple of years.

We had a lack of discipline and injuries this season that don't seem to jive with the last three years offensively. I think the shortcomings this season...a large part...the loss of the S&C. That guy spends more time with the team than any of the coaches and he also puts the Freshman all-everything HS players in their place.

Fixable stuff.

GBO!!!
 
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#17
#17
Wow... great stuff guys... makes a lot of sense on why the defense went down the tubes.

Go Vols!
 
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#18
#18
Honest question, if the DT's aren't penetrating into the backfield much for rush pressure/tackles for loss why aren't they both responsible for two gaps? Or is that why they haven't been getting a pass rush push, because they both have two gaps to free up a LB?
 
#19
#19
dan4vols said:
Honest question, if the DT's aren't penetrating into the backfield much for rush pressure/tackles for loss why aren't they both responsible for two gaps? Or is that why they haven't been getting a pass rush push, because they both have two gaps to free up a LB?
Click to expand...

I'm sure '73 could do a better job of explaining...generally speaking you are talking about two DT's...that would mean, typically, assuming nothing exotic, the defense is presenting a 4-3 look. Maybe they walk the force player up so you have four down lineman with what appears to be an OLB/DE walked up. The DT's are probably 1 and 3 tech's, responsible for those gaps.

However, speaking again simplistically, in a 3-4, you are asking the down lineman to occupy both gaps or even more simplistically two double teams, so the LB's are protected to roam and make plays. Think Vince Wilfork. Think Pittsburgh Steelers.

When a DC says he's multiple, as Shoop has, a guy like me wonders in what situations does he present odd or even looks. This is where I have a lot to learn.

As it pertains to Tennessee, how this discussion got started, when the big DT's get hurt you can no longer present both fronts and the other SEC coaches aren't stupid.

Yes, it's overly simplistic and I will regret this tomorrow.

As always...


GBO!!!
 
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#20
#20
DAMMIT!!! Knowledge and common sense?

This will not end well for the two of you!

Thanks for the posts. Would LOVE to see more of this instead of fahr Butch.
 
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#21
#21
I've now watched some clips of Appy St.'s D...I'd advise watching Dale Jone's Lb's coming down hill even though their front is out weighed by ours.

There was good reason to worry about scheme, UT doesn't see it very often imo.

Ya'll have a good night.

GBO!!!
 
#23
#23
Some of you obviously have figured out what the problem is. Maybe you should send your advice to the Coach.

Seriously, Jones has big decisions to make around the defense. To do that he needs to look at FACTS and ignore what armchair coaches on fan boards and media folks say is the problem and the cure. It is his reputation and job at stake. Others giving advice aren't impacted either way.

Many applauded the hiring of Shoop and based on how his defenses looked at previous stops that was warranted. But even the so called best can have less than spectacular performances.

I do find it ironic that many give Shoop the benefit of the doubt because he was successful elsewhere while they have from day 1 not given Coach Jones the benefit of his success at other schools. That's when the agendas are obvious - because one without an agenda would be consistent in such evaluations.
 
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#24
#24
dan4vols said:
Honest question, if the DT's aren't penetrating into the backfield much for rush pressure/tackles for loss why aren't they both responsible for two gaps? Or is that why they haven't been getting a pass rush push, because they both have two gaps to free up a LB?
Click to expand...

And when it was not working - why was there no adjustments? If I am being honest, the defensive play calling at Vandy in the second half looked like someone was trying to lose.

Edited to add: I don't believe that is the case but it looked that bad.
 
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