Ukraine Protests

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#8,484
#8,484
So many issues in this story...

Ukraine's nameless dead 'would take forever to count'

-The fact that so many are still disappearing and dying after a ceasefire is troubling.
-With amnesty declared there is no incentive or reason to pursue investigations to find these people either. Families will never know what happened. This is now legally swept under the rug.
-Here we have a noted instance of a Russian FSB colonel active in other "hot spots" active here and under legally questionable conditions. He can hide behind Putin's wall of diplomatic red tape and nothing is done.
 
#8,486
#8,486
Pacer92 said:
You're right! In the end, all this is is a mocking war, an info war. Neither country is as innocent or guilty as is portrayed certain sources.
Click to expand...

NO! It's not! People have died. Civilians have suffered the most. Let's go back in time. Had Russia closed its borders like it pledged to do, much of this would not have happened. Let's go even further back. Had Yanukovich kept his promise we really would not have been in this situation. Cry about a coup all you want. Prior to any so called coup, Viktor beat, killed, kidnapped, imprisoned his own people in violation of law and the constitution. Even if your "coup" was true the problem was in the making well ahead of your alleged timeline. This is a real war. Real death. Real destruction. Things will never be the same. You may think this is all just info and spin. You may get your jollies on carrying Putin's government's message. At the end of the day everything you whine about the US about you are just as guilty with complicity with Russia. The problems you have with the US? Where is your moral outrage with the "leaders" of the DNR and LNR? With Putin? I have NEVER cheered on and defended US policy in Ukraine. I have never defended Obama. If anything I think the current policy flat out sucks. Yes, all sides have blood on their hands. All sides in war have blood on their hands. This is fact. Difference is one side holds pretty much the weight of responsibility there. Because Yanukovich is Putin's puppet he and Vlad are the ones the responsibility get pinned on. Both could have easily prevented/stopped this. Instead both initiated and carried this even further spiraling downward. The US could not stop Yanukovich from breaking his promises. The US could not make him beat, jail, and kill his people. Or tank his economy. Or steal billions and prop up pro-Kremlin agents in government and businesses just like Putin does in Moscow. The US could not stop Russia just leaving borders open against agreements. The US could have done other things IN REACTION TO those events. But these events are what have us in this current predicament. Poroshenko's stupid decisions? IN REACTION TO events that transpired. There is blame to go around. But let's be fully honest with where responsibility lies. To date you've blamed the US for this whole mess...even with some stupid 9 point video blaming all of this on the US.
 
#8,487
#8,487
LouderVol said:
lol at this article

a bit thin skinned aren't they.

good thing Russia isn't preaching intolerance of the LGBT community,(intolerance, homophobia) and identifying itself as the premier race at the expense of all others. (racism and at least borderline fascism). because those 26 million might be rolling over in their graves.

really Afghanistan was about energy? Iraq and you have an argument (a winning won imo), but Afghanistan gtfo with that nonsense.

really? the invasion went quite well, holding it was a disaster, and considering the UN signed off on it and had troops involved...... again picking bad arguments where there are decent ones available.

i agree with the parts about Libya, except some of the sneakiness they are talking about.

syria as well, we should never have given the rebels guns.

what a load of BS.

really by upholding Minsk I or II or Budapest

not saying that NATO troops haven't committed war crimes, but really Russia is clean from Chechnya, Georgia and now Ukraine, as well as the oppression of their own people.(not being allowed peaceful protests/rallys)

what a load of nonsense. i am all for some borderline information that requires some digging however all of this is pure nonsense, most of it laughable. wow.
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Never seen so many "everybody knows..." in my life. As a general rule, anytime an author (even in an opinion piece) uses language like that, you can pretty much discredit them. The only thing worse I can think of is when one of my undergrads pulls out the ole' "throughout history" introduction in their essays.
 
#8,488
#8,488
volprof said:
Never seen so many "everybody knows..." in my life. As a general rule, anytime an author (even in an opinion piece) uses language like that, you can pretty much discredit them. The only thing worse I can think of is when one of my undergrads pulls out the ole' "throughout history" introduction in their essays.
Click to expand...

What do you teach?
 
#8,490
#8,490
CSpindizzy said:
NO! It's not! People have died. Civilians have suffered the most. Let's go back in time. Had Russia closed its borders like it pledged to do, much of this would not have happened. Let's go even further back. Had Yanukovich kept his promise we really would not have been in this situation. Cry about a coup all you want. Prior to any so called coup, Viktor beat, killed, kidnapped, imprisoned his own people in violation of law and the constitution. Even if your "coup" was true the problem was in the making well ahead of your alleged timeline. This is a real war. Real death. Real destruction. Things will never be the same. You may think this is all just info and spin. You may get your jollies on carrying Putin's government's message. At the end of the day everything you whine about the US about you are just as guilty with complicity with Russia. The problems you have with the US? Where is your moral outrage with the "leaders" of the DNR and LNR? With Putin? I have NEVER cheered on and defended US policy in Ukraine. I have never defended Obama. If anything I think the current policy flat out sucks. Yes, all sides have blood on their hands. All sides in war have blood on their hands. This is fact. Difference is one side holds pretty much the weight of responsibility there. Because Yanukovich is Putin's puppet he and Vlad are the ones the responsibility get pinned on. Both could have easily prevented/stopped this. Instead both initiated and carried this even further spiraling downward. The US could not stop Yanukovich from breaking his promises. The US could not make him beat, jail, and kill his people. Or tank his economy. Or steal billions and prop up pro-Kremlin agents in government and businesses just like Putin does in Moscow. The US could not stop Russia just leaving borders open against agreements. The US could have done other things IN REACTION TO those events. But these events are what have us in this current predicament. Poroshenko's stupid decisions? IN REACTION TO events that transpired. There is blame to go around. But let's be fully honest with where responsibility lies. To date you've blamed the US for this whole mess...even with some stupid 9 point video blaming all of this on the US.
Click to expand...

YES! Yes it is!!! To not be able to look at the proof of an American coup and info war against Russia is beyond me?! This is Americas best weapon in it's war on Russia! Let's dislodge a leader and blame it on the Russians. Let's shoot down a passenger plane and blame it on the Russians. Let's invade E Ukraine and blame the Russians. Let's break ceasefires and blame the Russians. America has a monopoly on world media and uses it to destroy country after country. Don't be a tag along all your life and believe all you hear or read.....think for yourself!
 
#8,491
#8,491
Pacer92 said:
YES! Yes it is!!! To not be able to look at the proof of an American coup and info war against Russia is beyond me?! This is Americas best weapon in it's war on Russia! Let's dislodge a leader and blame it on the Russians. Let's shoot down a passenger plane and blame it on the Russians. Let's invade E Ukraine and blame the Russians. Let's break ceasefires and blame the Russians. America has a monopoly on world media and uses it to destroy country after country. Don't be a tag along all your life and believe all you hear or read.....think for yourself!
Click to expand...

what the absolute frick. How does a country invade itself? there was nobody in E Ukraine until the rebels tried to break away TO RUSSIA NOT THE US.

and blaming the US on breaking the ceasefire, again what the absolute frick. HOW? Even in your own mind how did the US break the ceasefires? please explain.
 
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#8,492
#8,492
Pacer92 said:
YES! Yes it is!!! To not be able to look at the proof of an American coup and info war against Russia is beyond me?! This is Americas best weapon in it's war on Russia! Let's dislodge a leader and blame it on the Russians. Let's shoot down a passenger plane and blame it on the Russians. Let's invade E Ukraine and blame the Russians. Let's break ceasefires and blame the Russians. America has a monopoly on world media and uses it to destroy country after country. Don't be a tag along all your life and believe all you hear or read.....think for yourself!
Click to expand...

There was no American coup. No proof whatsoever. The $5 billion and the phone call are as stupid as you can get with evidence. The leader dislodged himself in his own actions. You cannot follow a basic path of logic and a timeline of events. Had Yanukovich kept his promise of constitutional reforms and partnership discussions with the EU (not integrating with the EU mind you, just partnership discussions), none of this would have happened. Had he not beat his own peaceful, unarmed civil demonstrating people, or unlawfully jailed them, or shot and killed them, or kidnapped opposition leaders...nothing more would have happened. HIS actions caused an escalation. Let's just pause right there at that point of the timeline. Nuland's call occurred at the end of January. All of these events happened even before January 1. But somehow a royally ticked off and fed up, abused people stood up but somehow you find the logic to blame the US for the events up to this point. Again, let's pause here and you tell me what responsibility the US had for these events. Show me proof the US caused any of the above violence and illegal/unconstitutional actions of Yanukovich.

-Breaking ceasefires? Seriously? Debaltseve. many others even with Minsk I

-Invade E Ukraine - this is what Russia allowed. They pledged to close the border. They lied. They kept it open. Whether you believe organized units crossing the border or not, the OSCE has documented evidence of personnel crossing the border. The guys who set up the DNR/LNR are either official Russian government or are WELL connected with Putin's inner circle. But somehow Russia has no involvement with this? What about this whole ceasefire delay? We have proof Putin wanted the delay. Why? To allow for Debaltseve to be captured. Please follow this logic and explain why some peaceful neighbor who according to him is NOT involved in this would force an agreement to have allotted for time for the DNR to kill more people to take a town. Explain this to me.

-World media? Again, I don't need the world media. I have seen this firsthand. Not sure why you cannot understand that. You have a problem with so called government owned media but yet you pour all of your trust into what? Government owned media. What it comes down to is hypocrisy. You have no principles on government control or their control over media. The fact you source one other version of government controlled media shows me this is more about America hate than MSM hate, or government power hate, etc. I do think for myself. I have been to these places. I've been to the Middle East. I have been to the Balkans. I have been to Latin America. My source is the actual people and locations. Your source is a government media with an agenda. You repeat news articles that are written by the Kremlin and craft an image that one man wants conveyed. You repeat the inner thinking of a KGB agent now in power. So please don't tell me to think for yourself. When your news is already thought out by someone else with an agenda and you preach it as truth, you are nothing but what you despise from other people.
 
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#8,493
#8,493
LouderVol said:
what the absolute frick. How does a country invade itself? there was nobody in E Ukraine until the rebels tried to break away TO RUSSIA NOT THE US.

and blaming the US on breaking the ceasefire, again what the absolute frick. HOW? Even in your own mind how did the US break the ceasefires? please explain.
Click to expand...

Are you that naive to think western Ukraine isn't an extension of the US controlled NATO now?!
 
#8,494
#8,494
Pacer92 said:
YES! Yes it is!!! To not be able to look at the proof of an American coup and info war against Russia is beyond me?! This is Americas best weapon in it's war on Russia! Let's dislodge a leader and blame it on the Russians. Let's shoot down a passenger plane and blame it on the Russians. Let's invade E Ukraine and blame the Russians. Let's break ceasefires and blame the Russians. America has a monopoly on world media and uses it to destroy country after country. Don't be a tag along all your life and believe all you hear or read.....think for yourself!
Click to expand...

I guess the Russian's are only capable to have a monopoly on their local media because the rest of the world sees through their bull****?
 
#8,495
#8,495
Pacer92 said:
Are you that naive to think western Ukraine isn't an extension of the US controlled NATO now?!
Click to expand...

Are you naive to think it IS now? A little odd for an extension to be begging for survival and not getting anything beyond medic kits. Not seeing the NATO Boogeyman hiding under the beds here. If we're talking about extensions let's look at the DNR/LNR - absolute rule, people disappearing, firing squads. POW's point blank executed. Tactics used by FSB and Spetsnaz. Weapons not available in any other nation outside of Russia.

Do you deny these two "republics" (which by the way do not exist because of Minsk II) are an extension of Putin?
 
#8,497
#8,497
RDU VOL#14 said:
I guess the Russian's are only capable to have a monopoly on their local media because the rest of the world sees through their bull****?
Click to expand...

+1

The fact they've either run off or seized and arrested independent media speaks volumes. You either stay silent/neutral or you carry Putin's line. Any deviation means your career is over.

Russia Today Anchor Resigns, Admits To Spreading 'Lies' For Putin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55izx6rbCqg

Translate this in Chrome:
Заработал новый проект Галины Тимченко - сайт meduza.io - BBC Russian
 
#8,499
#8,499
CSpindizzy said:
Are you naive to think it IS now? A little odd for an extension to be begging for survival and not getting anything beyond medic kits. Not seeing the NATO Boogeyman hiding under the beds here. If we're talking about extensions let's look at the DNR/LNR - absolute rule, people disappearing, firing squads. POW's point blank executed. Tactics used by FSB and Spetsnaz. Weapons not available in any other nation outside of Russia.

Do you deny these two "republics" (which by the way do not exist because of Minsk II) are an extension of Putin?
Click to expand...

Poroschenko does not call the shots in Ukraine...never has, never will!
 
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