Ukraine Protests

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#3,251
#3,251
Can't confirm legitimacy but if true lol.

@StateOfUkraine 1m

#Russia's main TV channel reported that #Yarosh head of the Right Sector did extremely well receiving 37% of the vote (it's actually 0.9%)
 
#3,253
#3,253
This would be a good start:

Rasputin_Vol said:
They overplayed their hand or underestimated Russia's response. Their hopes were to get The Ukraine and bring NATO defenses to Russia's back door and also remove them from their only warm water port in the Black Sea. Unfortunately for them, they were not students of history or literature... unaware that Charge of The Light Brigade was written about a British suicide mission during the Crimean War. Yet, all of a sudden, the media spin is that Russia occupied Crimea when in reality, Russia has about 250 years of history in the area. WTF?
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But I had heard it before from other sources, and I'm sure I'll hear it again at some point from other sources. Look, I don't claim the US/NATO to be inculpable in this situation, but the idea that they wanted to usurp Sevastopol from Russia's hands is just preposterous. It would cause a war.
 
#3,256
#3,256
Grand Vol said:
Did you start at the beginning and go all the way through? :)
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No. I pick it up here and there. Of course, I can't help but note that there's all this discussion of long term tensions over the EU, Crimea, etc., which seems to have replaced the notion I saw here for awhile that this happened because Obama was too nice to Syria. Glad to see that nonsense fade as we were never going to do anything overt in this situation.
 
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#3,257
#3,257
volprof said:
This would be a good start:



But I had heard it before from other sources, and I'm sure I'll hear it again at some point from other sources. Look, I don't claim the US/NATO to be inculpable in this situation, but the idea that they wanted to usurp Sevastopol from Russia's hands is just preposterous. It would cause a war.
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Hmmm... and where in that did I say that NATO wanted to establish a port a Sevastopol? I side their goals were to remove the Russians from there (or make it very difficult for them to operate).
 
#3,258
#3,258
lawgator1 said:
No. I pick it up here and there. Of course, I can't help but note that there's all this discussion of long term tensions over the EU, Crimea, etc., which seems to have replaced the notion I saw here for awhile that this happened because Obama was too nice to Syria. Glad to see that nonsense fade as we were never going to do anything overt in this situation.
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I'll disagree that Obama has been a role model of world leadership. And I still stand that Putin backed him in the corner very effectively without many options. Syria was just one of the things that helped set this in motion.
 
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#3,259
#3,259
Rasputin_Vol said:
Hmmm... and where in that did I say that NATO wanted to establish a port a Sevastopol? I side their goals were to remove the Russians from there (or make it very difficult for them to operate).
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You are correct that you did not explicitly state this; however, I don't know how else your statement was to be interpreted. So, we're removing Russia from its only warm water port/largest naval base and are just going to install another SeaWorld?
 
#3,260
#3,260
volprof said:
You are correct that you did not explicitly state this; however, I don't know how else your statement was to be interpreted. So, we're removing Russia from its only warm water port/largest naval base and are just going to install another SeaWorld?
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It was to be interpreted in the way that I said it. Not by adding or removing meaning or trying to put a clever spin on it.
 
#3,261
#3,261
Rasputin_Vol said:
It was to be interpreted in the way that I said it. Not by adding or removing meaning or trying to put a clever spin on it.
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So, to be clear, the US/NATO was seeking to remove Russia from Sevastapol as a strategy to rid them of their Black Sea/largest naval port but not for the purpose of integrating this port into NATO or the US Navy?

If this is your claim, then I will give you that. I just find it hard to believe that the US/NATO would seek to oust Russia from the Black Sea without seeking the same port for itself and without thinking a war would result (whether or not a new US/NATO base would be established).
 
#3,262
#3,262
volprof said:
So, to be clear, the US/NATO was seeking to remove Russia from Sevastapol as a strategy to rid them of their Black Sea/largest naval port but not for the purpose of integrating this port into NATO or the US Navy?

If this is your claim, then I will give you that. I just find it hard to believe that the US/NATO would seek to oust Russia from the Black Sea without seeking the same port for itself and without thinking a war would result (whether or not a new US/NATO base would be established).
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The more likely strategy was to remove the "Russian puppet" Yanukovych from office, put in their own pro-Western/EU puppet and then eventually apply diplomatic pressure on Moscow to get out of the Black Sea, the threat being that if they don't withdraw, there would be more sanctions and missiles in Kiev and elsewhere in Ukraine aimed at Moscow. They had no intentions of "directly" engaging Russia militarily to do this.
 
#3,263
#3,263
Rasputin_Vol said:
The more likely strategy was to remove the "Russian puppet" Yanukovych from office, put in their own pro-Western/EU puppet and then eventually apply diplomatic pressure on Moscow to get out of the Black Sea, the threat being that if they don't withdraw, there would be more sanctions and missiles in Kiev and elsewhere in Ukraine aimed at Moscow. They had no intentions of "directly" engaging Russia militarily to do this.
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If that's your take, then I respect it. I just vehemently disagree.
 
#3,264
#3,264
Rasputin_Vol said:
The more likely strategy was to remove the "Russian puppet" Yanukovych from office, put in their own pro-Western/EU puppet and then eventually apply diplomatic pressure on Moscow to get out of the Black Sea, the threat being that if they don't withdraw, there would be more sanctions and missiles in Kiev and elsewhere in Ukraine aimed at Moscow. They had no intentions of "directly" engaging Russia militarily to do this.
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The same puppet that also went against the collective will of the people and brutalized his people on the streets? Sorry, I'm not going to shed tears for him being thrown out.
 
#3,265
#3,265
Burhead said:
The same puppet that also went against the collective will of the people and brutalized his people on the streets? Sorry, I'm not going to shed tears for him being thrown out.
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1. It is looking more and more like the will of the people in regards to joining the EU were not necessarily in Ukraine's best interest. Just look at the ongoing EU election results across Europe and you will see that the EU is not growing and becoming more prosperous, but actually imploding and becoming closer to fragmenting than expanding anytime soon.
2. There is more than enough evidence that I have provided (that you choose to ignore) that puts a lot of doubt on this assertion that Yanukovych killed his own people.
3. Since when was I campaigning for you anyone to cry for Yanukovych?
 
#3,266
#3,266
Rasputin_Vol said:
1. It is looking more and more like the will of the people in regards to joining the EU were not necessarily in Ukraine's best interest. Just look at the ongoing EU election results across Europe and you will see that the EU is not growing and becoming more prosperous, but actually imploding and becoming closer to fragmenting than expanding anytime soon.
2. There is more than enough evidence that I have provided (that you choose to ignore) that puts a lot of doubt on this assertion that Yanukovych killed his own people.
3. Since when was I campaigning for you anyone to cry for Yanukovych?
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1. Regardless of if they want to join the EU, the Ukrainian people should have the right to decide for themselves if they want to or not. They shouldn't be worried about the Kremlin vetoing their sovereign right to decide.

2. I'm not taking talking just about the sniper attacks. I'm talking about all the violence the police perpetuated against peaceful Maidan protesters. This is what I'm talking about

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSt4kAItj4Q[/youtube]

That alone should be reason enough to throw him out of power. I can also find plenty of other videos and reports regarding Ukrainian police brutality against EuroMaidan but you'll probably just ignore that too.
 
#3,268
#3,268
Burhead said:
1. Regardless of if they want to join the EU, the Ukrainian people should have the right to decide for themselves if they want to or not. They shouldn't be worried about the Kremlin vetoing their sovereign right to decide.
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Wait, a democratically elected president chose not to sign an EU agreement. And because of that, it was grounds for the US to stage his unconstitutional removal from power and start to plot on who his successor should be? We have presidents her in the US that sign (or don't sign) domestically popular agreements and it didn't come to the point of requiring an impeachment. Really? Is this what you guys are going to hang your hats on?
 
#3,269
#3,269
Rasputin_Vol said:
Wait, a democratically elected president chose not to sign an EU agreement. And because of that, it was grounds for the US to stage his unconstitutional removal from power and start to plot on who his successor should be? We have presidents her in the US that sign (or don't sign) domestically popular agreements and it didn't come to the point of requiring an impeachment. Really? Is this what you guys are going to hang your hats on?
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If I'm not mistaken Yanek ran on a platform of EU integration. Yes, plenty of US politicians never fulfill their campaign promises as well, but something like EU integration is a pretty darn big deal. I can't exactly think of a US analogue off the top of my head, but it certainly isn't akin to reneging on a promise to lower taxes, for instance.

Also, if the US is capable of instigating a 100,000 plus person protest in a former Soviet/Russian Empire country, then we are even more powerful and insidious then what I previously thought. That's pretty damn impressive. Honestly, I don't even know that I could hate on that. It's like the ******* from Battlefield 4 that keeps shooting your rear the entire game; he's an *******, but you have to admire his abilities.
 
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#3,270
#3,270
vol4eva said:
The Ukrainian people were fed up with a man who stole billions from the state and opted for a brighter and more prosperous future with the EU. When that option was taken away from them, they took matters into their own hands, as evidenced by the thousands that protested peacefully throughout the winter. The US aren't the ones who instigated this crisis. Putin is simply scared he'll be next, since Russia is essentially a mafia state.
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The Red Bear's paws must reach beyond just The Ukraine. Seems like you have a lot of anti-EU sentiment. Why are these people seeming to run away from "a brighter and more prosperous future with the EU"? LOL...

Far right, Euroskeptics make big gains in EU vote - Houston Chronicle
 
#3,271
#3,271
Rasputin_Vol said:
Wait, a democratically elected president chose not to sign an EU agreement. And because of that, it was grounds for the US to stage his unconstitutional removal from power and start to plot on who his successor should be? We have presidents her in the US that sign (or don't sign) domestically popular agreements and it didn't come to the point of requiring an impeachment. Really? Is this what you guys are going to hang your hats on?
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He surrendered his legitimacy when his Berkut units tried to beat the opposition into submission. Give it up, the Kremlin forced fed propaganda is tiresome. He should be on trial for crimes against humanity.
 
#3,272
#3,272
Rasputin_Vol said:
The Red Bear's paws must reach beyond just The Ukraine. Seems like you have a lot of anti-EU sentiment. Why are these people seeming to run away from "a brighter and more prosperous future with the EU"? LOL...

Far right, Euroskeptics make big gains in EU vote - Houston Chronicle
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What did I just say earlier concerning Putinism, the EU, and fascism in that post that you attacked? You apparently never read the article I linked. Your post pretty much verifies its central argument: that Russia is fomenting European fascist nationalism(s). If the EU fails, I hope you'll be happy. It will mean we'll get to revisit Europe of the first half of the twentieth-century again.

I sometimes wonder about you.
 
#3,275
#3,275
volprof said:
What did I just say earlier concerning Putinism, the EU, and fascism in that post that you attacked? You apparently never read the article I linked. Your post pretty much verifies its central argument: that Russia is fomenting European fascist nationalism(s). If the EU fails, I hope you'll be happy. It will mean we'll get to revisit Europe of the first half of the twentieth-century again.

I sometimes wonder about you.
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I read bits and pieces of it... how this guy Timothy Snyder tried to (clumsily) contort and force some narrative that connects dots between the Bolsheviks, Nazis and Poland to what is happening 75 years later in Ukraine.

BTW, there is little doubt in my mind why this guy would want to make the Russians the losers and agitators in this fiasco. I did a bio search on this Timothy Snyder guy and I would have bet you $100 after read portions of that piece that he was somehow connected or had a bias in this. Sure enough, what do you know...

Timothy D. Snyder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mr. Snyder is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.
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