Ukraine Protests

[MG1968]

An instructive lesson from Syria is that America and other Western countries shouldn't be leading on people by suggesting that we're going to help them in their revolutions.

If they want to overturn their governments, be it Ukraine, Syria, Egypt, or where ever, their revolutions should be able to stand on their own, without relying on America to prop them up. If we encourage people do more than they can, it only hurts them more in the long run.

it also gets American ambassadors killed

 

[Burhead]

You can pretty much draw a border right down the middle and just have two new countries.

 

[Toujours Pret]

You can pretty much draw a border right down the middle and just have two new countries.

It could work. I don't think Ukraine would part with the port @ Odessa, and I imagine Vlad would like to have it.

 

[FLVOL_79]

An instructive lesson from Syria is that America and other Western countries shouldn't be leading on people by suggesting that we're going to help them in their revolutions.

If they want to overturn their governments, be it Ukraine, Syria, Egypt, or where ever, their revolutions should be able to stand on their own, without relying on America to prop them up. If we encourage people do more than they can, it only hurts them more in the long run.

I want to agree with what you said but I still have to recall how America gained her independence with help from the French. If someone wants our help and asks I am all for it. I am against assuming they must want America's help and we rush in. I think the Ukraine thing will solve itself.

 

[Burhead]

It could work. I don't think Ukraine would part with the port @ Odessa, and I imagine Vlad would like to have it.

Much of the heavy industry from the Soviet days are also in the East. I agree I don't see Kiev giving up pretty much half the country without some form of a fight.

 

[volprof]

You are correct. I'm not saying thats the right way or the best way but it is just life. Life will bite you in the ass hard if you let it. I also tend to be pessimistic about everything so when I am wrong its a better surprise! :good!:

No hard feelings, man. Just debating. I think pessimism is key here: we always assume the worst. I just wish we all could trust one another more. I know it's wishful thinking though.

 

[Grand Vol]

When are you going to wake up and realize that America can't control everything that happens in the rest of the world? That we don't have the military nor the will to be the global firefighter every time something flares up

Give us one single reason why we should interfere in what is happening in Crimea?

I don't think you're going to get much argument here. But the wild card in this entire situation is the fact Obama has nothing, absolutely nothing to point to as a win on foreign policy. And the fact the Russians, specifically Putin, are basically goading us into doing something is the key element here.

Most of the people on here agree that we have no interests worth fighting for in the Ukraine. But we also had little interest in Libya. And Syria for that matter before getting trumped by the Russians.

 

[Grand Vol]

It sucks for the civilians caught up in that mess but I still don't care. Guess I am just heartless, or maybe it's because it's the middle east and I've been around those animals too many times.

They've been fighting over that same ground for 5,000 years. Despite brief lulls in the fighting over time, it will continue despite what the US does or does not.

 

[Velo Vol]

You can pretty much draw a border right down the middle and just have two new countries.

But a good number of those Russian speakers are actually ethnic Ukrainians, rather than ethnic Russians. I don't think they are nearly as separatist-minded as the Crimeans.

 

[FLVOL_79]

This is just the situation that my Captain in the Army Russian Linguist brother needs to save him from the chopping block.

 

[volprof]

I don't think you're going to get much argument here. But the wild card in this entire situation is the fact Obama has nothing, absolutely nothing to point to as a win on foreign policy. And the fact the Russians, specifically Putin, are basically goading us into doing something is the key element here.

Most of the people on here agree that we have no interests worth fighting for in the Ukraine. But we also had little interest in Libya. And Syria for that matter before getting trumped by the Russians.

I know how much hardcore conservatives dismiss him, but I think Fareed Zakaria offers an interesting perspective on this issue:

Fareed Zakaria: America plays its role in a changing world right - The Washington Post

We can disagree about Obama's overall foreign policy. For instance, I agree that Syria might have been handled differently (although you should recall that there was also a big stink about how billions of dollars had been used to launch missiles in Libya, and this was something weighing upon the administration's mind regarding Syria).

The key thing we should take into consideration here is that Putin has absolutely nothing to lose. He doesn't give a **** (as you've admitted yourself) about the international community or his image, internationally. This is a much different situation than what Obama faces.

Now, here are some things we can reasonably do, and we'll see how Obama handles this in the future:

1. The EU can back off from trade with Russia.
2. The US can reinvigorate talks about missile defense systems in Eastern Europe once again (which I think we pulled out of because of Russian demands concerning their supply of natural gas, oil, etc. I could be wrong here though.)
3. The G8 can kick Russia out, or force some limited membership role.
4. Economic assets of Ukrainian (and possibly even Russian) oligarchs can be freezed.
5. Flying unicorns can invade Putin's Russia and overwhelm him with magical flower power.

But, to be fair, we'll see how Obama does in the coming days. I still think it's too early to tell. But these are measures he should pursue, minus number 5, obviously.

 

[Vol737]

When are you going to wake up and realize that America can't control everything that happens in the rest of the world? That we don't have the military nor the will to be the global firefighter every time something flares up

Give us one single reason why we should interfere in what is happening in Crimea?

Didn't say we can or should control everything and totally agree with what is in bold on your post above. However, Russia agreed to no interference and then promptly sent troops and is now interfering. They have been exhibiting this behavior for some time now. Saying one thing and doing another. So while we surrender every position of ours in that region, Russia continues to make major inroads to piecing back together the former Soviet states. If you think that's not Putin's goal and it's not a national security concern for the U.S., you would be wrong. Let Ukraine sort out Ukraine, not us or Russia. But Obama has not projected a strong foreign policy enough to be taken seriously anywhere in the world, so he keeps getting bent over by Putin.

 

[Vol737]

Now, here are some things we can reasonably do, and we'll see how Obama handles this in the future:

1. The EU can back off from trade with Russia.
2. The US can reinvigorate talks about missile defense systems in Eastern Europe once again (which I think we pulled out of because of Russian demands concerning their supply of natural gas, oil, etc. I could be wrong here though.)
3. The G8 can kick Russia out, or force some limited membership role.
4. Economic assets of Ukrainian (and possibly even Russian) oligarchs can be freezed.
5. Flying unicorns can invade Putin's Russia and overwhelm him with magical flower power. :crazy:

Send a carrier and destroyer group to the Med if not already there. Some of the things we can do to project our power and influence in the region that could be beneficial. Just copied for VeloVols benefit.

 

[volprof]

Didn't say we can or should control everything and totally agree with what is in bold on your post above. However, Russia agreed to no interference and then promptly sent troops and is now interfering. They have been exhibiting this behavior for some time now. Saying one thing and doing another. So while we surrender every position of ours in that region, Russia continues to make major inroads to piecing back together the former Soviet states. If you think that's not Putin's goal and it's not a national security concern for the U.S., you would be wrong. Let Ukraine sort out Ukraine, not us or Russia. But Obama has not projected a strong foreign policy enough to be taken seriously anywhere in the world, so he keeps getting bent over by Putin.

I would argue that Putin is more "czaristic" in behavior and is attempting to regain the former Russian Empire. But this is just an arbitrary differentiation, quite frankly.

To the direct point of your post, however, why should America be concerned about Russia reforming its Empire in Eurasia? Why shouldn't Russia, for instance, be concerned about America maintaining its Big Dick Influence upon the rest of the world? Seems to me that as distinct as the US and Russia are, we're still very much alike.

 

[Velo Vol]

So while we surrender every position of ours in that region, Russia continues to make major inroads to piecing back together the former Soviet states. If you think that's not Putin's goal and it's not a national security concern for the U.S., you would be wrong. Let Ukraine sort out Ukraine, not us or Russia. But Obama has not projected a strong foreign policy enough to be taken seriously anywhere in the world, so he keeps getting bent over by Putin.

Hypothetically speaking, even if Russia takes back Crimea and perhaps a couple other provinces, yet losses influence over the rest of Ukraine, it's not clear to me that that's a "win" for Putin. Could be a net loss. Which was why he was trying to prop up their collapsing government.

 

[volprof]

Send a carrier and destroyer group to the Med if not already there. Some of the things we can do to project our power and influence in the region that could be beneficial. Just copied for VeloVols benefit.

We could, and maybe that is indeed necessary action. Just seems like "guy with little penis" syndrome to me though. And how ever admirably his foreign policy may seem, Putin strikes me as a victim of this unfortunate "disease."

 

[Vol737]

I would argue that Putin is more "czaristic" in behavior and is attempting to regain the former Russian Empire. But this is just an arbitrary differentiation, quite frankly.

To the direct point of your post, however, why should America be concerned about Russia reforming its Empire in Eurasia? Why shouldn't Russia, for instance, be concerned about America maintaining its Big Dick Influence upon the rest of the world? Seems to me that as distinct as the US and Russia are, we're still very much alike.

I think America should be concerned b/c of the history we cannot ignore out of Russia and the former Soviet Union and it's transgressions against free people in the past. While I can't stand the direction of this country at the moment, from a historical perspective we have largely promoted countries finding their own way in a democratic fashion, Russia has not. While I would agree less interference is preferable from superpowers, it's not realistic. So in large part it comes down to what type of influence would it be better to project around the world? Some level of freedom and democracy or a totalitarian, govt. take all system that has impugned so many personally and economically throughout history?

 

[Grand Vol]

Interesting opinion piece

Ukraine, Syria, Iran -- America isn't leading from behind, it's being left behind | Fox News

 

[Godfatha]

You may be right. Although determining this is taking eighteenth century liberalism and placing it in the context of today's world. Who knows how this would work.

I think another interesting question would how does eighteenth century conservatism relate to today's conservatism.

Depends on what you call conservative nowadays. I consider myself conservative, and Libertarian. I believe in less restrictions in our personal lives as well as a more limited government. These two things usually go hand in hand but not always. I'm not a big fan of conservatism as it has been labeled today. Today there's not much difference between a conservative and a liberal. Conservatives today are just a less extreme version of a liberal.

As far as comparing today's conservatism with 18th century conservatism, I suppose you could make the case that the 18th century aristocracy has been replaced with the 21st century oligarchy.

 

[Godfatha]

Putin is to the Crimea as Hitler was to the Sudetenland. Hate to bring up Hitler, but the situations seem eerily similar.

 

[Burhead]

Ukrainian ambassador to UN claims at least 15,000 Russian troops on Crimea.

 

[Burhead]

Putin already laying the ground work for further expansion;

@20committee 2m

BREAKING Interfax report on Putin-Obama phonecon: "discussed in detail various aspects of the extraordinary situation in Ukraine" cont'd

Putin told Obama "should there be any further spread of violence towards eastern Ukraine & Crimea ...

Moscow reserves the right to defend its interests and the Russian-speaking population living there" -- Interfax

 

[Toujours Pret]

Putin already laying the ground work for further expansion;

@20committee 2m

BREAKING Interfax report on Putin-Obama phonecon: "discussed in detail various aspects of the extraordinary situation in Ukraine" cont'd

Putin told Obama "should there be any further spread of violence towards eastern Ukraine & Crimea ...

Moscow reserves the right to defend its interests and the Russian-speaking population living there" -- Interfax

Yep, if there's no violence in the east, the FSB will create it.

 

[vol4eva]

Defend them from what? As far as I can tell, violence hasn't broken out in eastern Ukraine.

 

[volprof]

Putin already laying the ground work for further expansion;

@20committee 2m

BREAKING Interfax report on Putin-Obama phonecon: "discussed in detail various aspects of the extraordinary situation in Ukraine" cont'd

Putin told Obama "should there be any further spread of violence towards eastern Ukraine & Crimea ...

Moscow reserves the right to defend its interests and the Russian-speaking population living there" -- Interfax

Honestly, as much as some on here are currently hating our approach, what are we supposed to do? I find it even more difficult when we take into consideration the fact that we've basically done the same thing in our own foreign policy. Yes, Obama is a weak, sissy ass motherf'er, who doesn't reserve any respect whatsoever. But there are somewhere between 100,000-500,000 Iraqis who wish Bush would have been more of a sissy mother****er.

Always easy to complain and ***** when you aren't directly affected by things, as we obviously aren't.