Ukraine Protests

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#4,051
#4,051
Last paragraph:

If we continue to adhere to the INF Treaty even as Moscow violates it, we will demonstrate our strength and confidence even as Putin and his cronies parade their paranoia. Putin is known, like many Russians, to hold former Soviet leader Gorbachev in low regard. When it came to stemming the tide of nuclear arms, however, Reagan and Gorbachev were stronger men, and his petulant violation of a treaty that made the world – Russia included – a safer place is testimony only to the weakness and insecurity of the men who govern Russia today.
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Good article on NATO/Russian relations and the current Russian violation of the INF treaty.

The INF Treaty and Russia
 
#4,053
#4,053
Velo Vol said:
Couldn't the same be said of the U.S.?
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Being that we have a vested interest in NATO, no.

If the elected leaders of the Ukraine decide they want their nation to join NATO or the EU, we can and should encourage that as that's their sovereign right. And the Russians can go piss up a rope since it doesn't concern them.
 
#4,054
#4,054
Grand Vol said:
If the elected leaders of the Ukraine decide they want their nation to join NATO or the EU, we can and should encourage that as that's their sovereign right. And the Russians can go piss up a rope since it doesn't concern them.
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Not going Rasputin_Vol here, but we've done more than "encourage" them.

I don't fault the Russians for attempting some of the same tactics. What I do fault them for is sending in mercenaries and weapons to stir up trouble, and then lying about it.
 
#4,055
#4,055
Grand Vol said:
Being that we have a vested interest in NATO, no.

If the elected leaders of the Ukraine decide they want their nation to join NATO or the EU, we can and should encourage that as that's their sovereign right. And the Russians can go piss up a rope since it doesn't concern them.
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If the same thing was going on in our back yard we would have the same response as Russia.
 
#4,056
#4,056
red butler said:
If the same thing was going on in our back yard we would have the same response as Russia.
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Probably so, but, unlike Russia, we actually made peace with our neighbors and established that we would respect their borders and sovereignty at least a hundred years ago. The Mexican Revolution, back around the time of WWI was the last time I can recall any of us having a spat.

Russia still hasn't worked this concept out.
 
#4,058
#4,058
Velo Vol said:
Not going Rasputin_Vol here, but we've done more than "encourage" them.

I don't fault the Russians for attempting some of the same tactics. What I do fault them for is sending in mercenaries and weapons to stir up trouble, and then lying about it.
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I'm not entirely convinced we have though. But that's a matter of reasonable debate.
 
#4,059
#4,059
red butler said:
If the same thing was going on in our back yard we would have the same response as Russia.
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So you're saying if Canada was to enter a partnership or union of sorts with Russia, we'd be supporting rebels that are shooting down civilian airliners from a third party, rigging elections and bringing in "volunteers" (and not the UT kind) as anti-governmental forces in Toronto?

Just that we're clear...
 
#4,061
#4,061
Velo Vol said:
Not going Rasputin_Vol here, but we've done more than "encourage" them.

I don't fault the Russians for attempting some of the same tactics. What I do fault them for is sending in mercenaries and weapons to stir up trouble, and then lying about it.
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Even if the Russians did do what you claim, it was in response to what the US did after the EU decision last fall.
 
#4,062
#4,062
volprof said:
Probably so, but, unlike Russia, we actually made peace with our neighbors and established that we would respect their borders and sovereignty at least a hundred years ago. The Mexican Revolution, back around the time of WWI was the last time I can recall any of us having a spat.

Russia still hasn't worked this concept out.
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Russia let The Ukraine run up a $5 billion gas bill. They couldn't just shut the gas off, however, because The Ukraine had the pipelines that lead into Western Europe, which would hurt Gasprom's bottom line. Russia even paid the Ukrainians rent for use of the Sevastopol naval base. Lets not make it out that Russia is out here aggressively conquering states. They were doing business with Ukraine up until the US meddled into Ukraines affairs.
 
#4,064
#4,064
Rasputin_Vol said:
Russia let The Ukraine run up a $5 billion gas bill. They couldn't just shut the gas off, however, because The Ukraine had the pipelines that lead into Western Europe, which would hurt Gasprom's bottom line. Russia even paid the Ukrainians rent for use of the Sevastopol naval base. Lets not make it out that Russia is out here aggressively conquering states. They were doing business with Ukraine up until the US meddled into Ukraines affairs.
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So they just didn't illegal annex Crimea?
 
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#4,066
#4,066
Grand Vol said:
So you're saying if Canada was to enter a partnership or union of sorts with Russia, we'd be supporting rebels that are shooting down civilian airliners from a third party, rigging elections and bringing in "volunteers" (and not the UT kind) as anti-governmental forces in Toronto?

Just that we're clear...
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When Saddam Hussein agreed to sell oil for Euros with the EU, that is exactly what the US did.
 
#4,067
#4,067
Burhead said:
So they just didn't illegal annex Crimea?
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They had an election.

Hey, I don't see any of you crying for the Palestinians after Israel annexes land outside of the 1948 agreement. Wars happen, and land/resources are taken. Why is The Ukraine any of our business?
 
#4,068
#4,068
Rasputin_Vol said:
They had an election.

Hey, I don't see any of you crying for the Palestinians after Israel annexes land outside of the 1948 agreement. Wars happen, and land/resources are taken. Why is The Ukraine any of our business?
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Israel is the result of British (if I'm not mistaken) mandated land. It is most often not a good thing when a country conquers land from elsewhere, but, before then, that land was of the Ottoman's. An illegitimate ruler, if you want to pursue this argument further. And before that, another equally illegitimate. Palestine, as such, was never a state. If the Brits and the UN decided to establish an Israeli state, then that's what they did with it. I'm not saying this was wise. I'm not saying this was fair. I'm not even saying this was morally right. I'm just saying this is what a state-owner decided to do.

Fast forward a decade. Nikita Kruschev decides to give Crimea to Ukraine. This, the action of a country where rule of one individual has always been law. And, quite frankly, probably always will. If the premier says this, then it is law. Ain't no checks and balances here. It's law.

Crimea was and is Ukraine's. A more powerful nation took it from them, so perhaps that makes them right, as you seem to suggest. But please don't act like this is the result of some sort of fair referendum. In doing so, you risk suggesting perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever posted on this forum.
 
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#4,069
#4,069
volprof said:
Israel is the result of British (if I'm not mistaken) mandated land. It is most often not a good thing when a country conquers land from elsewhere, but, before then, that land was of the Ottoman's. An illegitimate ruler, if you want to pursue this argument further. And before that, another equally illegitimate. Palestine, as such, was never a state. If the Brits and the UN decided to establish an Israeli state, then that's what they did with it. I'm not saying this was wise. I'm not saying this was fair. I'm not even saying this was morally right. I'm just saying this is what a state-owner decided to do.

Fast forward a decade. Nikita Kruschev decides to give Crimea to Ukraine. This, the action of a country where rule of one individual has always been law. And, quite frankly, probably always will. If the premier says this, then it is law. Ain't no checks and balances here. It's law.

Crimea was and is Ukraine's. A more powerful nation took it from them, so perhaps that makes them right, as you seem to suggest. But please don't act like this is the result of some sort of fair referendum. In doing so, you risk suggesting perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever posted on this forum.
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???
 
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#4,071
#4,071
Rasputin_Vol said:
Yes I would, you didn't answer my question about stocks vs precious metals.
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If I could figure out how to multiquote I would show you where I answered it. Diversity. He has told me that when I have the money I should invest many things, at the moment yes metal is looking good. But wait till tomorrow or the next day. If you go all out for one investment you are more likely to get burned.

I am guessing this is not really about investing advice and more about the downfall of the American system which is happening according to you in T minus 10 minutes or something.....soon. I get it, you want Russia to nuke the States so your bud Putin can rebuild the world like he wants.

as much as this sounds like irrational nationalism on my part, what happened the last time the US went up against Russia (USSR)? Same things going to happen here more than likely. Lots of proxy wars, pointing and blaming, build up and maneuvering, but now just as then the rest of the world doesn't want Russia getting too much power. (what is too much, depends on who you ask) As bad as America is, nobody in their right mind wants Putin in charge of the lone super power.
 
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#4,072
#4,072
LouderVol said:
If I could figure out how to multiquote I would show you where I answered it. Diversity. He has told me that when I have the money I should invest many things, at the moment yes metal is looking good. But wait till tomorrow or the next day. If you go all out for one investment you are more likely to get burned.

I am guessing this is not really about investing advice and more about the downfall of the American system which is happening according to you in T minus 10 minutes or something.....soon. I get it, you want Russia to nuke the States so your bud Putin can rebuild the world like he wants.

as much as this sounds like irrational nationalism on my part, what happened the last time the US went up against Russia (USSR)? Same things going to happen here more than likely. Lots of proxy wars, pointing and blaming, build up and maneuvering, but now just as then the rest of the world doesn't want Russia getting too much power. (what is too much, depends on who you ask) As bad as America is, nobody in their right mind wants Putin in charge of the lone super power.
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The way I multiquote is to hit the quotation marks icon on the right toolbar. Hit it for as many as you wish to quote, yet, on the last post you quote, hit the "Quote" bar, the one you would typically hit if you were simply going to quote one post.

Then again, you're talking to a guy here who still hasn't figured out how to embed photos, videos, or gifs after nearly 3 years of membership.
 
#4,073
#4,073
Rasputin_Vol said:
Yeah... you've had too much to drink. The overwhelming majority of Americans get their food from a supermarket and not from their home garden... its been like that for decades. I would say the Great Depression/Dust Bowl/industrialization killed the agrarian America you talking about.
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I think he was talking more about the flag waving/wearing Americans than the Norman Rockwell American.... could be wrong.
 
#4,074
#4,074
LouderVol said:
I think he was talking more about the flag waving/wearing Americans than the Norman Rockwell American.... could be wrong.
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I was talking about any American who has ever looked at a valley, a field, a mountain, a desert, or a hillside, here in this great land and felt an intimate relationship with it, a relationship in which they would not appreciate an aggressor nation to sever, co-opt, or affect one way or the other.
 
#4,075
#4,075
volprof said:
I was talking about any American who has ever looked at a valley, a field, a mountain, a desert, or a hillside, here in this great land and felt an intimate relationship with it, a relationship in which they would not appreciate an aggressor nation to sever, co-opt, or affect one way or the other.
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Sign me up for this camp, I don't like our government getting in the way as it is, can't imagine how i would react if someone invaded
 
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