Too much ice

#5,501
#5,501
EasternVol said:
That's a whole lot of dancing to go nowhere. Fascism is right wing, full stop. It takes major twists of history and logic to arrive at the conclusion that it's to the left. It's clear that you're eager to take those twists to get to your preferred conclusion. That doesn't earn any credit though.
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You do keep saying that.
 
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#5,502
#5,502
n_huffhines said:
Abolish ICE is a popular message right now, particularly on the left, but the DNC is getting everybody in line to stay away from that messaging.

Obama grew ICE a bunch. Then an insane person with dementia inherits ICE and turns the country upside down, but no way is the DNC about to surrender any federal power that they could later wield.

Red flags should be popping off for you freedom > security peeps

prospect.org

Author of ‘Don’t Say Abolish ICE’ Memo Is a Corporate Consultant - The American Prospect

Blas Nuñez-Neto is a senior adviser to WestExec, a shadow lobbyist for defense and tech firms.
prospect.org prospect.org
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The Dems are shying away from saying abolishing ICE the same reason they pretended they never said defund the police, it's not a popular issue among 80% of normal Americans
 
#5,508
#5,508
EasternVol said:
Fascism as you noted started as a sect of Socialism. I think you're ignoring that the ideological changes it underwent took it from leftist to rightist.
It's not my personal definition, it's general consensus, yesterday and today. In my UT days it was dogma in the Economics Department that Fascism was and is rightist.
In the 40's Fascists including Nazis were strongly anti-Bolshevik / Communist and that's still the case. Do you think Reds are right wing?
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that was after they were anti capitalist. The Nazis and the communists had a non-aggression pact so that the Nazis could go after the capitalists first. it wasn't accidental that the Nazis only went after the communists after clearing the continent of capitalism. Capitalism was seen as the common, and bigger enemy because it was politically more removed from either. both were seen as replacements of capitalism, not extensions or corrections.

none of the changes in fascism/nazism made it more "right" than capitalism. fascism/nazism was slightly right of communism, but not farther right than capitalism.

it got changed to far right because because people can't understand that slight political differences still make a big impact. heck we had monarchs fighting each other, so two branches of socialism fighting doesn't mean they were all that different. calling the nazis far right is an oversimplification that hides the truth, and largely done for political (local us) purposes.
 
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#5,509
#5,509
BreatheUT said:
www.foxnews.com

China has ‘bought off’ some of the US ‘elites,’ author argues | Fox News Video

‘The Invisible Coup’ author Peter Schweizer says the Chinese government is engaging in ‘civilizational warfare’ on ‘The Ingraham Angle.’
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

China has ‘bought off’ some of the US ‘elites,’ author argues​

‘The Invisible Coup’ author Peter Schweizer says the Chinese government is engaging in ‘civilizational warfare’ on ‘The Ingraham Angle.’
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The Chinese were able to buy their way in because Obama made it legal. Trump has expanded that program. thats not the "win" you think it is. its still a federal move, and one Trump backs.
 
#5,510
#5,510
LouderVol said:
that was after they were anti capitalist. The Nazis and the communists had a non-aggression pact so that the Nazis could go after the capitalists first. it wasn't accidental that the Nazis only went after the communists after clearing the continent of capitalism. Capitalism was seen as the common, and bigger enemy because it was politically more removed from either. both were seen as replacements of capitalism, not extensions or corrections.

none of the changes in fascism/nazism made it more "right" than capitalism. fascism/nazism was slightly right of communism, but not farther right than capitalism.

it got changed to far right because because people can't understand that slight political differences still make a big impact. heck we had monarchs fighting each other, so two branches of socialism fighting doesn't mean they were all that different. calling the nazis far right is an oversimplification that hides the truth, and largely done for political (local us) purposes.
Click to expand...
Also it's dumb to say fascism is only "right wing" when the actual behaviors of those fascists and communists are literally the same extremist behaviors towards normal people
 
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#5,511
#5,511
LouderVol said:
that was after they were anti capitalist. The Nazis and the communists had a non-aggression pact so that the Nazis could go after the capitalists first. it wasn't accidental that the Nazis only went after the communists after clearing the continent of capitalism. Capitalism was seen as the common, and bigger enemy because it was politically more removed from either. both were seen as replacements of capitalism, not extensions or corrections.

none of the changes in fascism/nazism made it more "right" than capitalism. fascism/nazism was slightly right of communism, but not farther right than capitalism.

it got changed to far right because because people can't understand that slight political differences still make a big impact. heck we had monarchs fighting each other, so two branches of socialism fighting doesn't mean they were all that different. calling the nazis far right is an oversimplification that hides the truth, and largely done for political (local us) purposes.
Click to expand...

A little word slipped yesterday. See if you can spot it. (I helped.)

EasternVol said:
Fascism as you noted started as a sect of Socialism. I think you're ignoring that the ideological changes it underwent took it from leftist to rightist.
It's not my personal definition, it's general consensus, yesterday and today. In my UT days it was dogma in the Economics Department that Fascism was and is rightist.
In the 40's Fascists including Nazis were strongly anti-Bolshevik / Communist and that's still the case. Do you think Reds are right wing?
Click to expand...
 
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#5,516
#5,516
EasternVol said:
That's a whole lot of dancing to go nowhere. Fascism is right wing, full stop. It takes major twists of history and logic to arrive at the conclusion that it's to the left. It's clear that you're eager to take those twists to get to your preferred conclusion. That doesn't earn any credit though.
Click to expand...
what do you think far right actually means? don't use Nazi as the example, give an actual description of what it means. because on pretty much every item, the Nazis were way to the left of capitalism, not to its right. anarchy is actually far right. thats why capitalism/laissez faire was considered "right". same with individual rights are a foundation of the political "right", while collectivism was always a matter of the left.

-Government control of production? Yes. far more government control than the US has ever exhibited. not sure how any of that can be construed as "far right". oligarchs are possible under communism too, so that argument won't hold water as a distinction to make the Nazi's "far right"
-Individual rights? restricted across the board, favoritism shown to Germans over other Europeans as long as you were a party member. Jews and other ethnic groups, and other non-desirables lost all rights. Party meant more than nationality. Yes it was better to be a german rather than a Pole. but Polish Nazis were treated better than the average non-party German. that is leftist
-Corporation control over the government? none. some corporations got "favorable" contracts, as in "Do this for us and we won't put your CEO in jail, and we will give you slave labor". but there is little to nothing to show the corporations had any real influence over the major nazi party members who made all the decisions. that is left of capitalism
-socialized healthcare? expanded and formalized under the Nazis. that is left.
-Job/wage/retirement programs? Expanded and formalized under the Nazis. at least for the Germans. The autobahn, and other major civil works programs were implemented by the government, not private corporations. that is left.
-Privatization of some aspects of the economy? Technically yes, a step towards the right of what is was. but certainly not to the point of being "far right". again it was done by the party to favor germans over foreign companies or non-desirable land owners. but even this was part of the job programs that got rid of foreign workers to give germans jobs.
-Expansionist? Yes. expansionism for the direct purpose of funding more military expansion. this is one of those items that isn't the typical left vs right; but it is still counter to the American "right".
-Economy? Driven by the military, not civilian corporations. it was a command economy set up to fuel the military, not private oligarchs. even a lot of the civilian work was done to disguise the military build up. See the Volkswagen plant that made like 100 civilian vehicles, and several thousands of military vehicles. There were multiple "four year plans" where the government directly told corporations what they needed to do, and directly worked to make those goals a reality. that is left.
-Slavery? yes, that would definitely be considered right of capitalism, so point there.
-Society over individual rights? absolutely more left, Hitler spoke frequently and often about the importance of the Wehrmacht over individuals desires. that collectivism is certainly a matter of the left.
-Institutional control of various "soft" industries? absolutely went far left, the states control over schools expanded. hospitals. media. art. all expanded. even religion, or secular-non government programs got co-opted by the Nazis. that is left of the American "right".
-Government style? Was absolutely more authoritarian than America. there was pretty much no say the average citizen had in the matters of government. the party was the ruling body, not any of the facades of legislature they kept for various periods. centralized government was the rule. left
-Trade laws? HIGHLY restricted, nothing laissez faire about it. tariffs, price controls, export/imports limits and targets. left.

2 of those 13 items would the Nazis have been "right" of the US, the rest they would have been far far far to the left. I don't see any way to claim they were "far right" on the actual metrics of the political spectrum.
 
#5,519
#5,519
allstar34 said:


The time for being a Pacifist is coming to an end. A Christian is the only category/belief that isn’t protected in this Country. The full extent of the law should be applied to these thugs. We don’t pay taxes to live in a Country of people that disturb our lives. Call in the military and eradicate this disease.
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You really need to re-examine where you source your news when you've hit the point of circulating LibsOfTikTok.
 
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#5,522
#5,522
Rickyvol77 said:
I don't disagree with that, but the video does speak for itself, regardless of who reposted it
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It's easy to flag a few instances as macro-norm in the age of misinformation.

Sorry, but these people and the Don Lemons of the world don't represent the grand body of people who oppose how ICE is being used.

Think about how you mentally respond to documented incidents of bad police work when someone slaps that brand on the entirety of law enforcement. It's the same thing, Ricardo.
 
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#5,523
#5,523
Orange_Crush said:
A little word slipped yesterday. See if you can spot it. (I helped.)
Click to expand...
I just really want to understand his spectrum of what counts as left vs right?

because it currently seems non-sensical. Anarchism is "far right". reduction of government control and individual rights has always been considered "right".

even if you want to consider the US the middle, and we aren't, there is no way the Nazis would be right of even where we are today, which is way more left than we were in the 1940s. even 1940s america was left of 1920s america.
 
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