To Protect and to Serve...

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#8,777
#8,777
Rasputin_Vol said:
But you did say that people that act belligerent usuall have something to hide... which is why instead of letting her go on her way, he decided to have her get out the car.

Again, if his intent was to just give her a warning, he could have gave her the warning and just let he drive off...
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How simple is it to give your info and take the ticket if that's what the officer decides to do?
 
#8,780
#8,780
volbeast33 said:
How simple is it to give your info and take the ticket if that's what the officer decides to do?
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Hey, in a kind of twisted sort of way, we need people that won't just fold over because some law says you should (Rosa Parks). We don't need to live in a society where we have bow to some jackbooting goons saying "Show me your papers".
 
#8,783
#8,783
Rasputin_Vol said:
Hey, in a kind of twisted sort of way, we need people that won't just fold over because some law says you should (Rosa Parks). We don't need to live in a society where we have bow to some jackbooting goons saying "Show me your papers".
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I don't think the Rosa Parks comparison makes any sense at all.
 
#8,784
#8,784
volbeast33 said:
What would happen if someone was selling items in front of your store? Would you call the police?
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Maybe, but for the sake of this exercise, lets assume that I do call the cops. He's on a public sidewalk. He paid for the cigarettes and paid the taxes on the purchase.

Is there any scenario outside of Garner throwing a punch where that situation couldn't have been handled without putting hands on him? I mean, when you step back from the situation, is that situation really worthy of police manhandling somebody? Lets assume Garner didn't die.
 
#8,786
#8,786
volbeast33 said:
What should be the penalty of selling loose cigarettes in front of a store?
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What should be the penalty for kids with coolers selling water bottles for a dollar outside of a Braves game? It is not legal to do it without a permit. Dozens of people do it. I've never seen anyone taken away in handcuffs for it, let alone choked to death.
 
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#8,787
#8,787
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
If I kick the cop, that would be assault and I would be charged. If I run a red light and hit someone, there would be a victim, therefore a crime. But, if I hit no one or damage property, I would be on my wreckless way.

I'm not sure how this is hard to understand. Extracting money from someone by threat of force (yes, extortion) for failing to obey arbitrary numbers on a sign or a colored light is silly and typical of government and their revenue system.
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And this is why your system would never work. You're saying you can run red lights, drive as fast as you want, hell use the emergency lane to get through congested areas quicker. As long as no one gets hurt or injured there is no crime. Your completely disregarding the fact that your increasing the chances of someone getting hurt by doing these. Prevention!!
 
#8,788
#8,788
SamRebel35 said:
What should be the penalty for kids with coolers selling water bottles for a dollar outside of a Braves game? It is not legal to do it without a permit. Dozens of people do it. I've never seen anyone taken away in handcuffs for it, let alone choked to death.
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I have been to the Braves games and the people selling water don't do it directly outside the stadium but away from it near the parking lots....it is not even close to the same scenario but if the Braves called the police then they would come and get the kids out of there.

If you owned a small store selling Beer, would you allow someone to sit up outside your door harassing your customers and selling products you carry cheaper than you are able too. I cannot believe no one sides with the store owner....the coroners report proved he wasn't choked to death.
 
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#8,789
#8,789
Rasputin_Vol said:
Maybe, but for the sake of this exercise, lets assume that I do call the cops. He's on a public sidewalk. He paid for the cigarettes and paid the taxes on the purchase.

Is there any scenario outside of Garner throwing a punch where that situation couldn't have been handled without putting hands on him? I mean, when you step back from the situation, is that situation really worthy of police manhandling somebody? Lets assume Garner didn't die.
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What should the cops have done Iyo? They tried to talk to him and he said FU...
 
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#8,790
#8,790
volbeast33 said:
I have been to the Braves games and the people selling water don't do it directly outside the stadium but away from it near the parking lots....it is not even close to the same scenario but if the Braves called the police then they would come and get the kids out of there.

If you owned a small store selling Beer, would you allow someone to sit up outside your door harassing your customers and selling products you carry cheaper than you are able too. I cannot believe no one sides with the store owner....the coroners report proved he wasn't choked to death.
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The stadium is the only place for commerce within a quarter mile radius. The guys selling water bottles are literally across the street from the main gates. It isn't too big of a stretch to compare the two scenarios.
 
#8,791
#8,791
SamRebel35 said:
The stadium is the only place for commerce within a quarter mile radius. The guys selling water bottles are literally across the street from the main gates. It isn't too big of a stretch to compare the two scenarios.
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Comparing a Major League Baseball team worth billions of dollars is a huge stretch when comparing it to a small business owner trying to scratch out a living....if you owned a beer store, would allow someone to set up shop out side your door harassing your customers and selling product that you carry in your store?
 
#8,793
#8,793
volbeast33 said:
Comparing a Major League Baseball team worth billions of dollars is a huge stretch when comparing it to a small business owner trying to scratch out a living....if you owned a beer store, would allow someone to set up shop out side your door harassing your customers and selling product that you carry in your store?
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But the law is the law, right? There are as many cops around the stadium as there are illegal vendors. They don't need to be told by the Braves ownership to do their job, do they? Are you saying that the law is only worth enforcing if someone has a complaint?
 
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#8,794
#8,794
SamRebel35 said:
But the law is the law, right? There are as many cops around the stadium as there are illegal vendors. They don't need to be told by the Braves ownership to do their job, do they? Are you saying that the law is only worth enforcing if someone has a complaint?
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So you are saying the cops should arrest the kids....you are a cruel man Sam.....I don't have a clue about the situation at Braves games....you are avoiding my question about Garner.
 
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#8,795
#8,795
Grand Vol said:
Conditional factors are there that are not being brought up. Who says they wouldn't have? Perhaps it was towards the end of the shift and they didn't want the hassle. Perhaps they didn't feel like extorting the public this one time. (Yes DTH, that's for you to giggle about) Perhaps she did so in a manner that led them to believe she might have been in medical trouble. Perhaps they thought she was intoxicated. Perhaps the taillight was burned out and all they were going to do was tell her to get it fixed. Don't jump to the conclusion they would have given her a ticket had she cut someone off.

There's a lot of what if's in this situation that led to the initial stop that many won't talk about. However, they have the right to at least check up on her especially if the situation was as I described. Not all cops want to give out tickets (sorry DTH) as some just don't want to deal with the trouble for various reasons.

The real debate here is what happened after she was stopped. Did she need to run her mouth? Did she need to strike the officer? And furthermore, if one wants to blame the cops, blame the jail officers that violated policy. There is the heart of the debate that should be going on. Not nitpicking the initial traffic stop that had too many factors to consider. This will get out of control because people are not focusing on the right questions and instead screaming "Black Lives Matter!" at the highest tone they can. Even though she was entirely in the wrong from the start.
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My only point is there is clearly a different set of expectations for police encounters depending on a host of demographic factors, most especially skin color. Those expectations are based on false beliefs. Many in the Black community believe law enforcement see them differently then their White neighbors. They believe the police see them as a threat that can escalate quickly. Consequently, they expect the police to be abusive and physical against them. For the most part that is a false belief, but they are still basing their expectations and subsequent behaviors off of that belief.

On the other side, I think many in law enforcement believe that Black citizens are emotional and prone to violence. They then expect to have to deal with an emotional person and are mentally prepared to deescalate the situation quickly and physically. Again, this is another false belief, but it is part of the pattern that is playing out on our streets.

So to me this event follows that standard pattern. The woman expected to be treated roughly and the police officer expected her to be violent. Her anxiety related behavior manifested as belligerence, his fear of escalation manifested in physicality. At the end of the day, she goes to jail for a lane change violation and then other factors (loss of her job perhaps, mental health issues etc) come into play and she ends up dead.

This pattern will continue until someone decides to examine their beliefs and change their expectations. Can we expect that to be the Black community? Maybe, but it is hard for those on the end of the stick to be the first to change. Fortunately, there are many who are trying to affect a change by having meetings, dialogues, etc between law enforcement and citizens. Unfortunately, though, we White people keep getting offended when minorities protest against harsh treatment and we drown out the legitimate complaints, making it hard to actually talk about the issues.
 
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#8,798
#8,798
YorkVol said:
My only point is there is clearly a different set of expectations for police encounters depending on a host of demographic factors, most especially skin color. Those expectations are based on false beliefs. Many in the Black community believe law enforcement see them differently then their White neighbors. They believe the police see them as a threat that can escalate quickly. Consequently, they expect the police to be abusive and physical against them. For the most part that is a false belief, but they are still basing their expectations and subsequent behaviors off of that belief.

On the other side, I think many in law enforcement believe that Black citizens are emotional and prone to violence. They then expect to have to deal with an emotional person and are mentally prepared to deescalate the situation quickly and physically. Again, this is another false belief, but it is part of the pattern that is playing out on our streets.

So to me this event follows that standard pattern. The woman expected to be treated roughly and the police officer expected her to be violent. Her anxiety related behavior manifested as belligerence, his fear of escalation manifested in physicality. At the end of the day, she goes to jail for a lane change violation and then other factors (loss of her job perhaps, mental health issues etc) come into play and she ends up dead.

This pattern will continue until someone decides to examine their beliefs and change their expectations. Can we expect that to be the Black community? Maybe, but it is hard for those on the end of the stick to be the first to change. Fortunately, there are many who are trying to affect a change by having meetings, dialogues, etc between law enforcement and citizens. Unfortunately, though, we White people keep getting offended when minorities protest against harsh treatment and we drown out the legitimate complaints, making it hard to actually talk about the issues.
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Statistics don't lie..
 
#8,800
#8,800
This is a good article on some efforts to change the pattern:

One year after Eric Garner's death, a quest for path out of 'police-community hostility' - CSMonitor.com

The argument on both sides summarized by participants:
Joshua Crespo, a 17-year-old student from Fort Hamilton High School in Brooklyn, doesn’t mince words.

“I do not believe that the majority of cops want to hurt people,” he says, “but when it does happen, it goes unanswered. And I don’t think it’s possible to say that when someone is shot ... and [the cops] don't face justice, you can’t say that there isn’t a problem, and that there isn't an intrinsic flaw.”

Joshua echoes what a lot of police critics and grass-roots community organizers say is the biggest flaw with this year’s effort to reform policing.
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The officers talking about their jobs at the Apollo say that being on high-crime beats can eventually wear officers down.

“I think sometimes some police officers, after they’ve been in a tough neighborhood for a while, they become – their personalities change almost,” says Officer Joe Fratto, a veteran of three years. “They’ve been in so many situations where they didn’t get the respect back that they expected, or somebody cursed them out for no reason, or they were filmed for no reason, for doing something that was legitimate and right. So, their personality changes, where, ‘OK, now it’s “us versus them,” and I’m not even going to try to give anybody any respect,’ or anything like that. So that happens a lot of times, and unfortunately, people get the wrong end of that.”
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cops & kids | All Stars Project, Inc.
 
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