To Protect and to Serve...

Status
Not open for further replies.
#4,301
#4,301
Why do we even give cops tasers if they won't use them? It seems like a large number of these controversial tragedies could be avoided if their instinct wasn't to immediately go for their guns.

It was unlikely the poor guy with the screwdriver was going to hurt anyone, much less kill anyone. His mom was not the least bit scared of him. He was well known to the community (including PD) as nonviolent. Even if he lunged at one of the cops, they should be able to handle the guy without killing him. Instead they shot him 6 times.

Are cop lives just that much more important than civilian lives? This is just an awful story from every angle. From the way we treat mental illness, to the police brutality, to the total lack of accountability. Just disgusting.

Sorry police apologists
 
#4,302
#4,302
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
You know GV, I find it funny that you defend/work for the very same system that you rail against with gun control. It's all government force at the end of the day. Cops are just the enforcement arm of a criminal government. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Click to expand...

I am quite the anomaly...

Look, I don't like the way things are going in certain LE areas. But I also don't lay the blame entirely at the feet of LEOs as we've argued before. But I also can look at the problem from both sides and see both angles since I've been retired.

The problem is, you and others can't and won't. Anyone who tries to explain anything is automatically wrong in your opinion because you don't trust anything about the system. This instance in particular I've offered a view from the police side that most of you have dismissed out of hand because you think I'm defending the responding patrols. And that's not anywhere near the case. There are a whole lot of different things that I might have done. But I also have to look at it from a practicality side of things. If every patrol went to that house ready for a fight and escalating the situation that so many times before didn't need to be escalated, eventually one's going to find the fight they are looking for. And they would be wrong.

Do you honestly think those officers were trigger happy? Do you think they were looking for a fight? Overbearing? "I'm the cop, I have a badge, do as I say" mentality? It sure didn't appear that way to me. And you can second guess the decision to use lethal force all day long until someone attacks a family member of your's with a object capable of killing them. You have two choices, one second to decide. Firearm or try to disable them.

I think I know what your response would be. And very likely, almost certainly, be cleared of any wrongdoing by the cops, the DA and everyone else after you put the bullets on target. But the standard is different for cops? They should be injured in order to use lethal force? Second guess the situation to death in "what if" scenarios and "well, you should have" responses?

This would be like a DA or a cop telling you that you should have taken karate and used it when someone is trying to kill a family member of yours when clearly you were within the law to defend yourself. But since they are cops they don't get that same consideration?

This entire sad situation could have very well been handled differently and had an entirely different outcome. And perhaps in the future would have ended the same way anyway. But again, you and others cherry pic the facts you want to use, ignore the history when it's convenient and have the ability to create alternative scenarios all day long. Unfortunately, you weren't there, you weren't faced with the split second decision to make and damn the officers for being wrong even though your actions very likely would have been similar.
 
#4,303
#4,303
BartW said:
Why do we even give cops tasers if they won't use them? It seems like a large number of these controversial tragedies could be avoided if their instinct wasn't to immediately go for their guns.

It was unlikely the poor guy with the screwdriver was going to hurt anyone, much less kill anyone. His mom was not the least bit scared of him. He was well known to the community (including PD) as nonviolent. Even if he lunged at one of the cops, they should be able to handle the guy without killing him. Instead they shot him 6 times.

Are cop lives just that much more important than civilian lives? This is just an awful story from every angle. From the way we treat mental illness, to the police brutality, to the total lack of accountability. Just disgusting.

Sorry police apologists
Click to expand...

I doubt you've even watched the video nor read the replies in the thread.
 
#4,305
#4,305
BartW said:
I posted the CNN article before you did
Click to expand...

Tell you what, why don't you let me attack you with a screwdriver and you can tell the forum how easy it is to defend against that kind of attack. I mean, I'll just be funning around and whatnot.

Fair?
 
#4,306
#4,306
Grand Vol said:
Tell you what, why don't you let me attack you with a screwdriver and you can tell the forum how easy it is to defend against that kind of attack. I mean, I'll just be funning around and whatnot.

Fair?
Click to expand...
Are you mentally ill? Do I get a taser and a partner? I'd prefer there be no killing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#4,307
#4,307
BartW said:
Are you mentally ill? Do I get a taser and a partner? I'd prefer there be no killing.
Click to expand...

I'd bet the cops on scene would have preferred not to have killing either. From all accounts the guy was just ill and generally not a threat to anyone as you stated. And just happened to snap at the wrong time. What? You think they went home and popped open a bottle of Jameson to celebrate?

You are the one that always says how dumb we are about global warming and whatnot and ignore the science, blah, blah, blah. I happen to know my facts in this matter and from three feet, unprepared, and even with a partner and a taser, you might not make it out alive.
 
#4,308
#4,308
n_huffhines said:
Body cams are useless in our discussions. Even when we have footage, the apologists still do mental gymnastics to defend bad police work.
Click to expand...

Not in this case..... If the body can of the cop that told him to drop it was on or working we'd be able to see what type of movement the guy made towards the cop.... Did he raise the screwdriver in a stabbing type posture?..... Was he simply walking?
If his movement was aggressive then he got capped ...... If he was just walking then the cop killed him without need
 
#4,309
#4,309
Grand Vol said:
I'd bet the cops on scene would have preferred not to have killing either. From all accounts the guy was just ill and generally not a threat to anyone as you stated. And just happened to snap at the wrong time. What? You think they went home and popped open a bottle of Jameson to celebrate?

You are the one that always says how dumb we are about global warming and whatnot and ignore the science, blah, blah, blah. I happen to know my facts in this matter and from three feet, unprepared, and even with a partner and a taser, you might not make it out alive.
Click to expand...

While I'm pretty knowledgeable about firearms I don't know much about tasers. (I mean, I can read but I'm talking real world/practical knowledge) If available (and they aren't always) it does seem like taking a little heat for tasing someone would still be a better outcome than having to justify lethal force, even more so considering the current social environment. What are the practical pros/cons to real world taser usage?
 
#4,311
#4,311
n_huffhines said:
Lady called the cops to help her escort her son to the mental hospital. Apparently they reported that they "feared for their lives" and used guns instead of tazers (when they probably didn't need to use any force).

The situation obviously didn't seem that crazy. The Mom was super cavalier and then they shoot him in like 2 seconds. FILM THE POLICE!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aALArJP4rw[/youtube]
Click to expand...

This isn't real. It can't be. No way this wasn't a staged event. Even I can't believe cops are this trigger happy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#4,312
#4,312
hndog609 said:
While I'm pretty knowledgeable about firearms I don't know much about tasers. (I mean, I can read but I'm talking real world/practical knowledge) If available (and they aren't always) it does seem like taking a little heat for tasing someone would still be a better outcome than having to justify lethal force, even more so considering the current social environment. What are the practical pros/cons to real world taser usage?
Click to expand...

When employed, they are a very effective tool that works most of the time. There are some potential side effects:

Taser safety issues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But overall, they tend to work as advertised. The problem arises when carried, it's generally on the opposing side of the handgun (like seen in the video) which creates a cross draw situation and adds to the amount of time needed to employ it. The problem (in this case at least) is there really isn't sufficient time to draw, remove the safety and fire (not even taking aiming into account at this range) on the intended target before they are in a position to harm their target. And chances of getting a secondary shock on your partner is extremely high. Better riding the bull than having to shoot someone though.

The problem, like most LTL devices, can be overuse. Most places have certain criteria needed in order to use said device, but there isn't a set standard across the board. So in one department, arguing with an officer that pulls you over could be cause to use a taser. In another, a subject may need to prove assaultive intent before an officer can employ it.

And last, but certainly not least, there will be some that will complain that any usage of a taser was not valid. "Could have talked him down" or "didn't have to put themselves in that position" or even "could have gone hands on" would be normal answers. And you see them right here in this thread.

Other than the potential medical side effects of a taser, there aren't a lot of cons to using one. It really is an effective pain compliance tool and effective LTL device. Provided there is a somewhat established standard across the board for usage. Which would be impossible to enforce State to State and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
 
#4,314
#4,314
Carl Pickens said:
Hard to say Dink.....dude did have a screwdriver and made a fast move toward a cop that had told him to drop it at least twice....
Click to expand...

Maybe we are not seeing the same video. Liked like he was walking out picking his fingernails with the screwdriver.

And besides that, why lethal force? Why not the taser?
 
#4,315
#4,315
Grand Vol said:
Tell you what, why don't you let me attack you with a screwdriver and you can tell the forum how easy it is to defend against that kind of attack. I mean, I'll just be funning around and whatnot.

Fair?
Click to expand...

Give me a baton and or taser and I'll be your Huckleberry.
 
#4,321
#4,321
Grand Vol said:
I'd bet the cops on scene would have preferred not to have killing either. From all accounts the guy was just ill and generally not a threat to anyone as you stated. And just happened to snap at the wrong time. What? You think they went home and popped open a bottle of Jameson to celebrate?

You are the one that always says how dumb we are about global warming and whatnot and ignore the science, blah, blah, blah. I happen to know my facts in this matter and from three feet, unprepared, and even with a partner and a taser, you might not make it out alive.
Click to expand...
Look, I respect your experience in this field. I respect and appreciate law enforcement in general. I don’t think those cops went home and popped a bottle. I don’t think they’re filled with racist hatred.

I think they’re afraid. Some cops are afraid of black people; some cops are afraid of the mentally ill. And when they’re scared their instinct is to reach for their guns. That’s human nature! But it shouldn’t be police nature. There are numerous examples in this thread where police could have responded with less than lethal force and prevented needless loss of life.

As long as there is no accountability police will continue to be trigger happy. Y’all value cop lives more than you do civilian lives. That’s my uninformed opinion. I think it’s also the growing opinion of the majority of Americans. Whether or not it’s true, that’s the image you’ve created.
 
#4,324
#4,324
Grand Vol said:
When employed, they are a very effective tool that works most of the time. There are some potential side effects:

Taser safety issues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But overall, they tend to work as advertised. The problem arises when carried, it's generally on the opposing side of the handgun (like seen in the video) which creates a cross draw situation and adds to the amount of time needed to employ it. The problem (in this case at least) is there really isn't sufficient time to draw, remove the safety and fire (not even taking aiming into account at this range) on the intended target before they are in a position to harm their target. And chances of getting a secondary shock on your partner is extremely high. Better riding the bull than having to shoot someone though.

The problem, like most LTL devices, can be overuse. Most places have certain criteria needed in order to use said device, but there isn't a set standard across the board. So in one department, arguing with an officer that pulls you over could be cause to use a taser. In another, a subject may need to prove assaultive intent before an officer can employ it.

And last, but certainly not least, there will be some that will complain that any usage of a taser was not valid. "Could have talked him down" or "didn't have to put themselves in that position" or even "could have gone hands on" would be normal answers. And you see them right here in this thread.

Other than the potential medical side effects of a taser, there aren't a lot of cons to using one. It really is an effective pain compliance tool and effective LTL device. Provided there is a somewhat established standard across the board for usage. Which would be impossible to enforce State to State and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Click to expand...

Oh I certainly see the possible issues with "overuse". Still, how hard can it really be to get something that remotely resembles a "just usage" guideline? We're currently dealing with justifiable use of force that makes people dead...surely we can figure out something for reasonable usage regarding an effective tool where the stakes can be lowered. (I especially think in a scenario involving more than one officer)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
New posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Advertisement





Back
Top