To Protect and to Serve...

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#4,326
#4,326
BartW said:
I think they’re afraid. Some cops are afraid of black people; some cops are afraid of the mentally ill. And when they’re scared their instinct is to reach for their guns. That’s human nature! But it shouldn’t be police nature. There are numerous examples in this thread where police could have responded with less than lethal force and prevented needless loss of life.
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And I'll ask you the same thing I've asked. Did those cops appear to be scared in that video?

And reaching for a firearm isn't human nature. That's training when faced with a lethal attack.

BartW said:
As long as there is no accountability police will continue to be trigger happy. Y’all value cop lives more than you do civilian lives. That’s my uninformed opinion. I think it’s also the growing opinion of the majority of Americans. Whether or not it’s true, that’s the image you’ve created.
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I think you are correct that without accountability, things could get out of control.

But I don't think it's as widespread as people make it out to be. DTH posted a link somewhere back in the depths of this thread that monitors police shootings. And in almost each of them I checked, the shoots would be justified.

"Man attacks cop with a knife, gets shot."

"Man opens fire on police, gets shot."

"Man points weapon at cop, gets shot."

Et cetera. I think I found a couple in the twenty-five or so I checked that would be questionable. And the problem isn't the perception being on the rise. The problem is when it does happen once (Ferguson for example) the media blasts in it your ears 24 hours a day. And cites other examples as a so called "trend" of violence by police. And people will second guess everything that happens from then on out and second guess each and every decision that's made by police in a lethal force encounter. And whether right or wrong, the facts will get omitted, strewn about and the public misled by those that really don't know what they're talking about.

This is a two way street as I continue to argue time and time again.
 
#4,327
#4,327
hndog609 said:
Oh I certainly see the possible issues with "overuse". Still, how hard can it really be to get something that remotely resembles a "just usage" guideline? We're currently dealing with justifiable use of force that makes people dead...surely we can figure out something for reasonable usage regarding an effective tool where the stakes can be lowered. (I especially think in a scenario involving more than one officer)
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That would have to be a Federal level type of thing.

Each State and Jurisdiction comes up with a usage model so to speak. But it would still be on each place to enforce it.
 
#4,329
#4,329
Grand Vol said:
That would have to be a Federal level type of thing.

Each State and Jurisdiction comes up with a usage model so to speak. But it would still be on each place to enforce it.
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Understood. However, I'm not talking about an across the board/chisled in stone approach. Everywhere (federal/state/local) has a justifiable use of lethal force code, correct? Can it really be that hard to come up with something for use with tasers? And it sure as hell seems like, where practical/appropriate, tasing someone would be a hell of lot easier discussion than how somebody got shot.

I'm not trying to swing the pendulum too far here...if lethal force is justified then so be it. It just seems like some instances would be viewed as much more palatable if there was at least the impression that firearms weren't such an easy option.
 
#4,331
#4,331
Rasputin_Vol said:
Maybe we are not seeing the same video. Liked like he was walking out picking his fingernails with the screwdriver.

And besides that, why lethal force? Why not the taser?
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At the beginning perhaps he was.... But if you take your cop hating glasses off and watch it in slow motion you'll notice that he's not in frame when the cops pull their guns....BUT.... You hear panic in his mother's voice while she's callng his name. When he's shot his hands aren't down at his sides either
 
#4,333
#4,333
Rasputin_Vol said:
Got a question... at that close, do you have to aim for center mass? Why not the knees/legs?
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GV can give his answer but I can tell you what it probably is and certainly what I was taught. There might be certain very specific situations where "shoot to wound" might come into play but they're pretty limited. Succinctly; if your threat level is such that you aren't shooting in defense of severe injury/death then you've basically exposed yourself to being questioned about the viability of using lethal force* at all. If you aren't justified shooting center mass you very likely aren't justified shooting regardless.

*Regardless of what your shot was intended to do a firearm is lethal force. A GSW to the leg, particularly if it happens to strike the femoral artery, can very much result in death.
 
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#4,334
#4,334
YorkVol said:
I think you or any of your SPs could have disarmed the guy. Too often our police are opting for lethal force when it is just barely justified. I maintain something has changed, either in the police regulations that makes it less burdonsome on the officer after one of these shootings, or perhaps they aren't getting their injuries covered anymore. It just used be a lot bigger deal just drawing your weapon than it appears today.
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To be fair people have also changed. Much more brazen and crazy nowadays.
 
#4,335
#4,335
The other cop's camera wasn't working that day, huh? Imagine that.

I wonder how long they can get away with that one until we have to form a whole new department that maintains the cameras and makes sure they're properly working, because this broken police camera epidemic is truly astounding.
 
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#4,338
#4,338
MercyPercy said:
The other cop's camera wasn't working that day, huh? Imagine that.

I wonder how long they can get away with that one until we have to form a whole new department that maintains the cameras and makes sure they're properly working, because this broken police camera epidemic is truly astounding.
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GV already posted that the video that you did see came from the officer that bought it with his own funds which he wasn't required to do. I guess you want to ignore that.
 
#4,339
#4,339
jp1 said:
GV already posted that the video that you did see came from the officer that bought it with his own funds which he wasn't required to do. I guess you want to ignore that.
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What does any of that have to do with the other camera not working?
 
#4,340
#4,340
Grand Vol said:
The answer is yes, I certainly could Monday morning quarterback a lot of things here.

A: Not having a reactionary gap for starters. The cop on the left (the wearing the camera) stated he was up against a vehicle so there was no room to move. Forcing him into a bad positioning during the call.

B: They had been to that residence multiple times in the past and never had a problem before. Which very well could have been the reason they didn't have the proper reactionary gap needed. (an assumption on my part) And were completely unprepared for an attack.

C: Knowing such, it was probably a shock seeing him come to the door with a makeshift weapon. And make no mistake about it, a screwdriver makes a pretty darn effective weapon when that close in.

D: Like it or not, the man did charge the officer wearing the camera unlike he had in the past. Making his intent immediately hostile and furthermore hostile with a deadly weapon.

E: Yes, they very well could have used LTL force on the subject. But from time they observed the weapon (21 seconds in the video) to instructing him to drop it (22 seconds) to first shot fired at the man (25 seconds). So four seconds and the pistols aren't even out of the holster at the 24 second mark. So in reality less than a second to make a choice. He had been reasonable in the past (according to the CNN article) so complacency had likely set in on the responding officers.

Start to finish, four seconds with about a three foot gap in a situation they had done several times in the past. If someone attacked you with a screwdriver at that range and the weapon most immediate to you was a firearm, I'd hope someone else wouldn't second guess your actions. And you can see the most obvious LTL device (Taser) on the left hand side of the gun belt. That adds at least another half a second if not more to drawing and utilizing it. One could assume that's standard department procedure to carry it in that position as many departments don't want the Taser confused with a sidearm. So in that half second, the man has already stabbed you at least once, maybe more and your partner is now out of position to make a lethal shot.

Love the classic quote of "shoot him in the leg or something" during the article as well. Anyway...

Yes, there was a potential to use LTL force. Yes, they cops screwed up by not having a proper reactionary gap and room to maneuver. Yes, the most, or at least quickest, method of force was likely the handgun. Yes, they were complacent because they had been there before and weren't expecting to be attacked.

Of course everything I just wrote will be ignored by those that have never been in that kind of situation so I'm not sure why I just wasted my time writing it all out.
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Thanks for the detailed answer.
 
#4,344
#4,344
Between Obama and Holder, they're planning on replacing all the current police stations with their own. Six cities are already being set up. It's all part of his future martial law. If it happens, this country is done unless we decide to stop it and take our country back! Need a 50 state revolution.
 
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#4,345
#4,345
Grand Vol said:
You understand it may have been individually purchased and was no required by the department at the time of the incident?
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Regardless if it was mandatory or not, don't you find it convenient that the camera that probably had a better vantage point of the incident "wasn't working,"?

Doesn't this seem to happen a whole lot? First, the police car dashboard cameras seemingly had this malfunction often, now the personal cameras are following suit. It's like if you had a security camera in your home, and it worked every single day, but the one time someone invades your home and kills your family member, it just so happened to be on the fritz. You wouldn't be suspicious of that phenomenon?
 
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#4,346
#4,346
MercyPercy said:
Regardless if it was mandatory or not, don't you find it convenient that the camera that probably had a better vantage point of the incident "wasn't working,"?

Doesn't this seem to happen a whole lot? First, the police car dashboard cameras seemingly had this malfunction often, now the personal cameras are following suit. It's like if you had a security camera in your home, and it worked every single day, but the one time someone invades your home and kills your family member, it just so happened to be on the fritz. You wouldn't be suspicious of that phenomenon?
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I honestly think some of you are making things that really arent there.

Is there a history of this you can point to?
 
#4,347
#4,347
Grand Vol said:
I honestly think some of you are making things that really arent there.

Is there a history of this you can point to?
Click to expand...

Agree or disagree... I'm baffled how you can't at least see how suspicious that looks to some. The one day that he's involved in a shooting and has the best view of what happened, his camera wasn't working.

I'm not saying that means he's clearly guilty. For all we know the video could've exonerated them and they're just that unlucky. All I'm saying is that it's extremely suspicious.
 
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#4,348
#4,348
Cdywolfe said:
Agree or disagree... I'm baffled how you can't at least see how suspicious that looks to some. The one day that he's involved in a shooting and has the best view of what happened, his camera wasn't working.

I'm not saying that means he's clearly guilty. For all we know the video could've exonerated them and they're just that unlucky. All I'm saying is that it's extremely suspicious.
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And that's the only day it wasn't working? Or are we assuming that?

I'm just as suspicious as the next person over a lot of things, but I also know that technology isn't as reliable just yet as it could be. And if the unit was individually purchased, it very well could have legitimately failed since some of them aren't that great.
 
#4,349
#4,349
Grand Vol said:
And I'll ask you the same thing I've asked. Did those cops appear to be scared in that video?
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Yes. In this instance the cops are mostly if not entirely at fault for escalating the situation. The mother was calm because this was a routine exercise for them. Why are the cops yelling and making frightening gestures? He’s just standing there twiddling a screwdriver. That's not how you handle a bipolar/schizophrenic.
Grand Vol said:
And reaching for a firearm isn't human nature. That's training when faced with a lethal attack.
Click to expand...
Being afraid of people who are different is human nature.
Grand Vol said:
I think you are correct that without accountability, things could get out of control.

But I don't think it's as widespread as people make it out to be. DTH posted a link somewhere back in the depths of this thread that monitors police shootings. And in almost each of them I checked, the shoots would be justified.

"Man attacks cop with a knife, gets shot."

"Man opens fire on police, gets shot."

"Man points weapon at cop, gets shot."

Et cetera. I think I found a couple in the twenty-five or so I checked that would be questionable. And the problem isn't the perception being on the rise. The problem is when it does happen once (Ferguson for example) the media blasts in it your ears 24 hours a day. And cites other examples as a so called "trend" of violence by police. And people will second guess everything that happens from then on out and second guess each and every decision that's made by police in a lethal force encounter. And whether right or wrong, the facts will get omitted, strewn about and the public misled by those that really don't know what they're talking about.

This is a two way street as I continue to argue time and time again.
Click to expand...
I would like to read that article. I agree that the media blows up some of these stories, but there are plenty of cases that don’t get MSM coverage and I’m sure plenty more that get no coverage whatsoever. Just one instance of unjustified killing by police is too many imo.

If you can’t figure out how to reach for the taser before the gun, how about we take all your toys away and arm you with billy clubs instead?
 
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#4,350
#4,350
apevol said:
Wouldn't that be giving him home field advantage?
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Just trying to keep it interesting. I'm 6'7'' 250 and with my trusty sidekick and our various weapons (and superb police training), it shouldn't be much of a fight. All GrandVol has is a couple of loose screws and a screwdriver
 
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