To Protect and to Serve...

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#4,226
#4,226
n_huffhines said:
Lady called the cops to help her escort her son to the mental hospital. Apparently they reported that they "feared for their lives" and used guns instead of tazers (when they probably didn't need to use any force).

The situation obviously didn't seem that crazy. The Mom was super cavalier and then they shoot him in like 2 seconds. FILM THE POLICE!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aALArJP4rw[/youtube]
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Those cops just wanted to shoot someone. If I went to someone's house with a gun and shot them in their doorway while they are holding a screwdriver, I would be doing serious jail time. Nothing will happen to these guys except paid vacations.
 
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#4,227
#4,227
Especially if you were aware he was crazy. The real world knows mental cases are supposed to be treated delicately and it just seems like cops go the opposite way. In the cases of killings, it's like they wanted things to go that way. There was no negotiation here at all over a screwdriver. Just dead. Like the downs syndrome kid those cops killed at the movie theater. Etc.
 
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#4,234
#4,234
Grand Vol said:
Yeah, cause someone coming at you with a screwdriver isn't a threat or anything...

Video: Dallas police open fire on schizophrenic man with screwdriver - CNN.com
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Especially after a 911 call was made saying he was out of control. It's a very unfortunate event, but I understand exactly how it happened. If you could see the victim actually step out of the door I think we'd all have a better understanding of what actually happened. We can't see what he did with his hands just before the shots were fired..... Awful scene nonetheless
 
#4,235
#4,235
The problem in all of this is that the only people authorized to kill in this instance are police. If she had asked her neighbor for help, and it went down exactly the same way her neighbor would be completely and totally ****ed. No discussion. For some reason it's a discussion when it comes to those we are supposed to trust with our personal safety.
 
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#4,237
#4,237
Carl Pickens said:
Hard to say Dink.....dude did have a screwdriver and made a fast move toward a cop that had told him to drop it at least twice....
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Have you ever been maxed or tased before?

You need to understand that those who suffer from bipolar disorder are prone to erratic behavior in the midst of a manic episode. The officers knew the situation, but elected to use lethal force, despite the various non lethal tools they have. Why stand so close? Why draw a firearm before he charges? You don't think having two guns in a bipolar individuals face will always go wrong?

This country has some pretty serious issues in how negligent we are with the mentally ill. I know it's easier to shoot them like rabid dogs, but there were other ways to handle that.
 
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#4,238
#4,238
n_huffhines said:
The problem in all of this is that the only people authorized to kill in this instance are police. If she had asked her neighbor for help, and it went down exactly the same way her neighbor would be completely and totally ****ed. No discussion. For some reason it's a discussion when it comes to those we are supposed to trust with our personal safety.
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Just to play devil's advocate..... The neighbor could have also gotten stabbed in the skull with a screwdriver
 
#4,239
#4,239
Grand Vol said:
The funny looking markings under the video? Those are words. Meant to be read. Which also detail a lot more than 30 seconds of video would.
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I think you or any of your SPs could have disarmed the guy. Too often our police are opting for lethal force when it is just barely justified. I maintain something has changed, either in the police regulations that makes it less burdonsome on the officer after one of these shootings, or perhaps they aren't getting their injuries covered anymore. It just used be a lot bigger deal just drawing your weapon than it appears today.
 
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#4,241
#4,241
Carl Pickens said:
Just to play devil's advocate..... The neighbor could have also gotten stabbed in the skull with a screwdriver
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Maybe he had a sniper on the roof. You never know, but that doesn't mean you can just start shooting crazy people you are there to help.

3 vs 1, if they can't handle a fat old loser then they can't be trusted to protect us with anything other than lethal force and they don't deserve to be cops.
 
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#4,242
#4,242
n_huffhines said:
Maybe he had a sniper on the roof. You never know, but that doesn't mean you can just start shooting crazy people you are there to help.

3 vs 1, if they can't handle a fat old loser then they can't be trusted to protect us with anything other than lethal force and they don't deserve to be cops.
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Lol a fat old loser you say?..... While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying , I don't have a very strong opinion on this instance of police violence.
 
#4,245
#4,245
DinkinFlicka said:
So you don't find anything excessive or in poor practice here?

Really?
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YorkVol said:
I think you or any of your SPs could have disarmed the guy. Too often our police are opting for lethal force when it is just barely justified. I maintain something has changed, either in the police regulations that makes it less burdonsome on the officer after one of these shootings, or perhaps they aren't getting their injuries covered anymore. It just used be a lot bigger deal just drawing your weapon than it appears today.
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The answer is yes, I certainly could Monday morning quarterback a lot of things here.

A: Not having a reactionary gap for starters. The cop on the left (the wearing the camera) stated he was up against a vehicle so there was no room to move. Forcing him into a bad positioning during the call.

B: They had been to that residence multiple times in the past and never had a problem before. Which very well could have been the reason they didn't have the proper reactionary gap needed. (an assumption on my part) And were completely unprepared for an attack.

C: Knowing such, it was probably a shock seeing him come to the door with a makeshift weapon. And make no mistake about it, a screwdriver makes a pretty darn effective weapon when that close in.

D: Like it or not, the man did charge the officer wearing the camera unlike he had in the past. Making his intent immediately hostile and furthermore hostile with a deadly weapon.

E: Yes, they very well could have used LTL force on the subject. But from time they observed the weapon (21 seconds in the video) to instructing him to drop it (22 seconds) to first shot fired at the man (25 seconds). So four seconds and the pistols aren't even out of the holster at the 24 second mark. So in reality less than a second to make a choice. He had been reasonable in the past (according to the CNN article) so complacency had likely set in on the responding officers.

Start to finish, four seconds with about a three foot gap in a situation they had done several times in the past. If someone attacked you with a screwdriver at that range and the weapon most immediate to you was a firearm, I'd hope someone else wouldn't second guess your actions. And you can see the most obvious LTL device (Taser) on the left hand side of the gun belt. That adds at least another half a second if not more to drawing and utilizing it. One could assume that's standard department procedure to carry it in that position as many departments don't want the Taser confused with a sidearm. So in that half second, the man has already stabbed you at least once, maybe more and your partner is now out of position to make a lethal shot.

Love the classic quote of "shoot him in the leg or something" during the article as well. Anyway...

Yes, there was a potential to use LTL force. Yes, they cops screwed up by not having a proper reactionary gap and room to maneuver. Yes, the most, or at least quickest, method of force was likely the handgun. Yes, they were complacent because they had been there before and weren't expecting to be attacked.

Of course everything I just wrote will be ignored by those that have never been in that kind of situation so I'm not sure why I just wasted my time writing it all out.
 
#4,246
#4,246
Grand Vol said:
The answer is yes, I certainly could Monday morning quarterback a lot of things here.

A: Not having a reactionary gap for starters. The cop on the left (the wearing the camera) stated he was up against a vehicle so there was no room to move. Forcing him into a bad positioning during the call.

B: They had been to that residence multiple times in the past and never had a problem before. Which very well could have been the reason they didn't have the proper reactionary gap needed. (an assumption on my part) And were completely unprepared for an attack.

C: Knowing such, it was probably a shock seeing him come to the door with a makeshift weapon. And make no mistake about it, a screwdriver makes a pretty darn effective weapon when that close in.

D: Like it or not, the man did charge the officer wearing the camera unlike he had in the past. Making his intent immediately hostile and furthermore hostile with a deadly weapon.

E: Yes, they very well could have used LTL force on the subject. But from time they observed the weapon (21 seconds in the video) to instructing him to drop it (22 seconds) to first shot fired at the man (25 seconds). So four seconds and the pistols aren't even out of the holster at the 24 second mark. So in reality less than a second to make a choice. He had been reasonable in the past (according to the CNN article) so complacency had likely set in on the responding officers.

Start to finish, four seconds with about a three foot gap in a situation they had done several times in the past. If someone attacked you with a screwdriver at that range and the weapon most immediate to you was a firearm, I'd hope someone else wouldn't second guess your actions. And you can see the most obvious LTL device (Taser) on the left hand side of the gun belt. That adds at least another half a second if not more to drawing and utilizing it. One could assume that's standard department procedure to carry it in that position as many departments don't want the Taser confused with a sidearm. So in that half second, the man has already stabbed you at least once, maybe more and your partner is now out of position to make a lethal shot.

Love the classic quote of "shoot him in the leg or something" during the article as well. Anyway...

Yes, there was a potential to use LTL force. Yes, they cops screwed up by not having a proper reactionary gap and room to maneuver. Yes, the most, or at least quickest, method of force was likely the handgun. Yes, they were complacent because they had been there before and weren't expecting to be attacked.

Of course everything I just wrote will be ignored by those that have never been in that kind of situation so I'm not sure why I just wasted my time writing it all out.
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I feel Ya GV...... I'd like to see the body cam from the other cop. I bet his tells a better story.
 
#4,247
#4,247
Body cams are useless in our discussions. Even when we have footage, the apologists still do mental gymnastics to defend bad police work.
 
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#4,248
#4,248
DinkinFlicka said:
Have you ever been maxed or tased before?
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Yes, I have.

DinkinFlicka said:
You need to understand that those who suffer from bipolar disorder are prone to erratic behavior in the midst of a manic episode.
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Which as stated above, the police had been there multiple times before.

DinkinFlicka said:
The officers knew the situation, but elected to use lethal force, despite the various non lethal tools they have.
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You have a choice to make in less than a second.

Think fast Dink. A friend of yours gets attacked by a man wielding a weapon. You have less than a second to decide whether to waste another half second or more going for an LTL device or respond to deadly force with deadly force.

DinkinFlicka said:
Why stand so close?
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Valid question, but I'd say history plays into this a lot.

DinkinFlicka said:
Why draw a firearm before he charges?
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As I pointed out before, the firearms weren't drawn until a second or less prior to the first shot being fired.

DinkinFlicka said:
You don't think having two guns in a bipolar individuals face will always go wrong?
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Moot point per the answer above.

DinkinFlicka said:
This country has some pretty serious issues in how negligent we are with the mentally ill. I know it's easier to shoot them like rabid dogs, but there were other ways to handle that.
Click to expand...

Had you stopped with your first sentence, I would agree. But the second is wholly unnecessary.

One second to make a decision. Think fast.
 
#4,249
#4,249
n_huffhines said:
Body cams are useless in our discussions. Even when we have footage, the apologists still do mental gymnastics to defend bad police work.
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This just goes to show how completely stupid you are in these discussions. Even when someone with 20 years experience tells you otherwise and attempts to explain things, you ignore everything and make up your own mind.

One second Huff, one ****ing second. You encounter someone on the streets that goes from standing there to attacking you with a deadly weapon in one ****ing second and see how you react.

So either bring a valid argument to the thread or shut up. Your pathetic attempts to make something out of this situation are really annoying.
 
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#4,250
#4,250
Grand Vol said:
This just goes to show how completely stupid you are in these discussions. Even when someone with 20 years bias tells you otherwise and attempts to explain things, you ignore everything and make up your own mind.
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fyp

You can't even call this bad police work. Forget about criminal. Forget about about terminatable offense...just admit it's bad police work.
 
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