To Protect and to Serve...

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#5,801
#5,801
Grand Vol said:
So back to this...

I think there are different kinds of respect. Individual and professional. You can respect a profession and yet not respect an individual that happens to be in that profession. Paramedic for example is a profession that I respect the hell out of. Yet, I know more than a few EMTs that are complete horse's backsides. But I don't damn the entire profession based on the actions or attitudes of a few of the members thereof.

And yet, I can respect an individual and not respect their profession. Not disrespect it mind you, but it doesn't garner the immediate respect I might give to something else. Take your profession as an engineer for example. I can respect you as an individual, but don't necessarily believe your profession would or should immediately bring respect in my mind.

Courtesy on the other hand should be assumed both ways in any discourse. Until given a reason not to be of course. But being courteous don't necessarily equal respect. You can be courteous, but not respect the individual or the profession.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Until cops start being held to a higher standard of adherence to the law they're entrusted to uphold... I'll have a diminished respect for the profession.

Until cops willingly turn their "brothers" in that have unlawfully beaten, murdered or even otherwise falsified police reports... I'll have a diminished respect for the profession.

Until cops realize they're supposed to be benevolent upholders of the law upon citizens of the US instead of malevolent enforcers of the law upon subjects... I'll have a diminished respect for the profession.

My neighbor is almost a perfect example of a cop. This requires some backstory:

I moved into my current house when I was 26. It's a pretty decent sized 2-story on a nice lot. My wife was 24 and we had plates from Virginia. Anyway, the next-door neighbor is a volunteer firefighter and had FOP tags on his truck (of course it's a jacked up F-150) so I'm assuming he was a cop (later confirmed).

Anyway, I move in in November. Come Spring-time it's time for him to tend to his pool. He dumps his pool water into my yard. Starts killing my grass and the excessive intake of chlorine makes my dogs sick. Anyway, he does this while he knows my wife and I are at work.

He does this when he knows (thinks) he won't get caught. Typical behavior. Circumvent ethics when you know you won't pay the piper.

Anyway, he keeps doing this until one day my wife is home and she sees it. She asks him to not dump the water in our yard and he agrees. Fast forward a week and he does it again. This time I caught him in his backyard doing it. I go up to our fenceline (7' privacy fences) and ask him to meet me out front so we can talk about it. He refuses so I just yell over the fence.

That's not how I wanted it to go, but I'm not great at de-escalating a conflict and he was a former cop so obviously he's trained to enflame situations and force submission on his subjects.

So he tells me he has to dump his pool water out and I should deal with it. I inform him his pool water is his problem and not my yards... yadda yadda yadda. He eventually forces me to tell him I have a watershed easement on my property and his chlorinated poolwater is not only killing my property but it's circumventing the stormdrains and is going into a watersystem. That finally gets his attention and he stops.

But he did say that if he were 15 years younger he'd have "climbed over the fence and kicked my ass" for yelling at his wife (which I never did... but making crap up to escalate a problem is another offshoot of his training I guess).

2 weeks after our spectacular display of maturity and problem-solving a rash of tornados come through. His elm tree is knocked into my yard and knocks over a cedar. Again, we'll have to figure this out. So I try to catch him in his yard (hell with going onto his property, this is a castle doctrine state. I'm not that stupid) and it's 2 weeks until I catch him to resolve it.

He ends up talking down to me and lecturing me about how I was rude to not introduce myself when I moved in (this is the South, the existing residents introduce themselves and welcome the new-comer) and he has been a career "civil servant" and how he "knows people like me". I'm assuming by the 2nd quote he thinks I'm probably a spoiled rich kid from the North whose parents have bought him everything from his college degree to his house. I inform him I did 5 in the military and I swear to God his entire tune changed.

Instantly.

He then tells me a fun story about how his station chief is a former Marine and is prickly so that's that.

Just everything about this guy from the dumping of pool water during the day while we're at work to the patronizing lecture to the instant change of tack when I told him I was in the military. My wife, who grew up around cops, pretty much brushed him off with "he's a lot like the guys I grew up with".

Guys like my neighbor are the problem. Cool story, I know.
 
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#5,805
#5,805
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#5,806
#5,806
agent|orange said:
Guys like my neighbor are the problem. Cool story, I know.
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But again, this is an individual action and unrelated to their professional behavior. Have you ever encountered this individual on the job before? Are they the same way on duty as opposed to dumping pool water on your lawn?
 
#5,807
#5,807
agent|orange said:
There was still a form of governance and outlying of laws that were upheld by a core group of lawmen.

Sure, there was a huge difference between NYC of the 1880s and the Arizona Territory but there was a "government" in place.
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Granted, but it hadn't reached the monopoly of force in a given area, as it has today.
 
#5,808
#5,808
Grand Vol said:
But again, this is an individual action and unrelated to their professional behavior. Have you ever encountered this individual on the job before? Are they the same way on duty as opposed to dumping pool water on your lawn?
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So you're telling me he is a paragon of justice during the day when he's a cop... but he goes home and thinks he can "kick the beta male rich-kid brat next door"?

I'm not buying it.

And, yes, this guy is a reflection of his profession. I was when I wore my uniform out in public and I was with how I conducted myself to those that knew I was in the military. Hell, I've been out for almost 7 years and I still represent my service.

And for the record, I don't think all cops are fascist pigs. I just simply think that line of work does make it very easy for the bullies and @ssholes to be bullies and @ssholes knowing they can get away with it.
 
#5,809
#5,809
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Granted, but it hadn't reached the monopoly of force in a given area, as it has today.
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Agreed. I would say the WWW was a "quasi-governed area". There wasn't a formal government with such rigid laws in place but on the same token I honestly think I'd rather live right here, right now than face the rigors and hardships of life in the AT or any other "frontier area".

That's the kind of place where if you're 45 years old, you're ancient. It was a horrendously rough life.
 
#5,810
#5,810
agent|orange said:
Agreed. I would say the WWW was a "quasi-governed area". There wasn't a formal government with such rigid laws in place but on the same token I honestly think I'd rather live right here, right now than face the rigors and hardships of life in the AT or any other "frontier area".

That's the kind of place where if you're 45 years old, you're ancient. It was a horrendously rough life.
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As would I. Although, I'd prefer much less government force.
 
#5,811
#5,811
allvol123 said:
Nazi Germany had rule of law. You'd respect it and the enforcers of it?


I don't blindly hand my respect to anyone. Especially those with too much power.
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That is a stupid argument. When you pervert the rule of law to the extreme you end up with fascism. I'm not talking about blind obedience to a system controlled by someone else. We are Americans, not Nazi Germans. We American citizens are responsible for the laws we have. And, we have the ability to influence those laws. Consequently we should show some measure of respect to those laws and should also value the process that we can use to change those laws when they prove to be wrong somehow. That respect should be extended to those who are responsible for operating our legal system. That doesn't mean you have to accept an individual officer being a jerk or abusing his or her power. Nor should we accept malfeasance at any level of our legal system. But, if you accept the fact that we need these laws to enable a civil society, then you can at least be polite and courteous to those individuals authorized to enforce them. And if they give you a lawful directive you should follow it.

If you are so small minded that you can't do that without being a jerk to those individual officers simply because of your code of "not blindly giving respect to anyone" (which I highly doubt is true, btw), then you can't be helped.
 
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#5,812
#5,812
agent|orange said:
So you're telling me he is a paragon of justice during the day when he's a cop... but he goes home and thinks he can "kick the beta male rich-kid brat next door"?

I'm not buying it.

And, yes, this guy is a reflection of his profession. I was when I wore my uniform out in public and I was with how I conducted myself to those that knew I was in the military. Hell, I've been out for almost 7 years and I still represent my service.

And for the record, I don't think all cops are fascist pigs. I just simply think that line of work does make it very easy for the bullies and @ssholes to be bullies and @ssholes knowing they can get away with it.
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And you are proving my point about twisting what I'm saying because I said nothing of the sorts.

Have you or have you not seen this guy on duty? Because some people can separate their professional and personal lives. Some people, by nature, are just *******s. Now whether they are *******s at work or not is a different matter entirely. I can be a sarcastic ******* on here all day long. But I also know when and where to turn it off. People assume I'm the same way at work as I am at home.

Not anywhere near the case. You of course don't have any way of confirming that and I know trust is out of the question since you don't trust the profession much less the individuals, so I'm likely just wasting bandwidth talking about it.
 
#5,813
#5,813
YorkVol said:
That is a stupid argument. When you pervert the rule of law to the extreme you end up with fascism. I'm not talking about blind obedience to a system controlled by someone else. We are Americans, not Nazi Germans. We American citizens are responsible for the laws we have. And, we have the ability to influence those laws. Consequently we should show some measure of respect to those laws and should also value the process that we can use to change those laws when they prove to be wrong somehow. That respect should be extended to those who are responsible for operating our legal system. That doesn't mean you have to accept an individual officer being a jerk or abusing his or her power. Nor should we accept malfeasance at any level of our legal system. But, if you accept the fact that we need these laws to enable a civil society, then you can at least be polite and courteous to those individuals authorized to enforce them. And if they give you a lawful directive you should follow it.

If you are so small minded that you can't do that without being a jerk to those individual officers simply because of your code of "not blindly giving respect to anyone" (which I highly doubt is true, btw), then you can't be helped.
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:good!: Gave you a like. Very well said & I agree with you.
 
#5,814
#5,814
YorkVol said:
That is a stupid argument. When you pervert the rule of law to the extreme you end up with fascism. I'm not talking about blind obedience to a system controlled by someone else. We are Americans, not Nazi Germans. We American citizens are responsible for the laws we have. And, we have the ability to influence those laws. Consequently we should show some measure of respect to those laws and should also value the process that we can use to change those laws when they prove to be wrong somehow. That respect should be extended to those who are responsible for operating our legal system. That doesn't mean you have to accept an individual officer being a jerk or abusing his or her power. Nor should we accept malfeasance at any level of our legal system. But, if you accept the fact that we need these laws to enable a civil society, then you can at least be polite and courteous to those individuals authorized to enforce them. And if they give you a lawful directive you should follow it.

If you are so small minded that you can't do that without being a jerk to those individual officers simply because of your code of "not blindly giving respect to anyone" (which I highly doubt is true, btw), then you can't be helped.
Click to expand...


Mostly, you don't like the answer because your question was too broad and stupid. Thus, you were unable to get the answer you desired.

I don't need to respect laws written by politicians I don't respect and enforced by buffoons I loathe.

The instances we are seeing lately are because technology has become so cheap and widely available. This is who cops are, not some anomalies.

To end, I don't care what you believe about me.
 
#5,815
#5,815
Actually came in here today to bring up the topic of Community Policing again. I realize it isn't the sexy "I hate cops, all cops are crap" vs "all police are angels" debate you guys like, but it is one that I think needs to be looked at more carefully. In my view we've tipped the scales too far to the gun fight at night and could make a lot of progress if we did more community policing during the day. It takes longer to have the affect desired, but that affect lasts longer in my view. The night time activities are still important, but there needs to be some balance.

In this story, a young girl got shot playing on the street on Mother's Day a few years back. My family and I were actually walking one block over when this happened as we were coming home from the Spring Street Fair. Mr. War lives across the street from the shooting and decided to organize the neighborhood to make it safe for everyone, but especially the kids. He is a maintenance guy at the school my wife used to work at and, while a great guy, he isn't highly educated. He just took some actions that needed to be done.

But, when you look at the article you see he still wants more. One of the things he wants to see is more police on the street during the day. Yes, a Black Man is asking for more police presence to enhance the safety of his street. This should mean something to all of us. We need to have positive relationships with our police officers so they can be seen in a positive light and not just someone who will kick in the door in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any action on the part of our city police department. Last I checked we had two our of over 100 officers doing a neighborhood bike patrol. We are a small city of about 5 square miles, we have over 100 officers in the department and only two do any sort of community policing on a routine basis. There are many on duty during the day and many are in the community, but only two are actually assigned this role. That is out of balance in my view.

Neighbors' work produces York City block to be proud of - York Dispatch

For a long time, parents had been afraid to let their kids play outside because of the shootings, Wars said. As he spoke, several kids walked through the playground gate.

Residents have also made minor improvements to the facades of their homes, including flower boxes on the sidewalks and freshly painted front doors.

Joe Wars walks along the block of South Duke St. where he lives Thursday, April 16, 2015. He is organizing neighbors to make improvements to the
Joe Wars walks along the block of South Duke St. where he lives Thursday, April 16, 2015. He is organizing neighbors to make improvements to the neighborhood. Bill Kalina -bkalina@yorkdispatch.com
Twice each month, the group of neighbors collects trash scattered throughout the block.

The "gangsters" — as Wars calls them — are gone, he said. And when troublemakers show up, "We run them out," he said.

Doing more: Wars said Crispus Attucks has facilitated many of the positive changes. The city has also chipped in by trimming trees, fixing potholes and installing slow-down signs.

A York City police officer has come to neighborhood meetings and distributed his cellphone number, which the residents use regularly to report concerns, Wars said.

But, Wars said, he wants to do more.

Not only does he want the residents to feel safer, Wars also wants the general public to pass through South Duke Street without locking their doors.

"I want them to see a nice, clean, safe neighborhood," he said. "I want it to look lovely."

Wars plans on approaching a local waste-management company about placing a Dumpster nearby for residents to use for large items.

He wants to see the sidewalks repaired and decorative lights installed.

He wants trash cans on the corners.

Help from police: Wars also wants the York City Police Department to spend more time on South Duke Street. Wars said he wants to see officers walking through the neighborhood multiple times per day, not just driving through.

"I want them to walk down the street and say hi to the people in the community," he said. "People are feeling better. But I want them to feel safe."

Police Chief Wes Kahley did not respond to a request for comment.
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#5,816
#5,816
YorkVol said:
That is a stupid argument. When you pervert the rule of law to the extreme you end up with fascism. I'm not talking about blind obedience to a system controlled by someone else. We are Americans, not Nazi Germans. We American citizens are responsible for the laws we have. And, we have the ability to influence those laws. Consequently we should show some measure of respect to those laws and should also value the process that we can use to change those laws when they prove to be wrong somehow. That respect should be extended to those who are responsible for operating our legal system. That doesn't mean you have to accept an individual officer being a jerk or abusing his or her power. Nor should we accept malfeasance at any level of our legal system. But, if you accept the fact that we need these laws to enable a civil society, then you can at least be polite and courteous to those individuals authorized to enforce them. And if they give you a lawful directive you should follow it.

If you are so small minded that you can't do that without being a jerk to those individual officers simply because of your code of "not blindly giving respect to anyone" (which I highly doubt is true, btw), then you can't be helped.
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And they call my ideas utopian....

Please tell me what places anyone under any moral responsibility to follow the edicts (laws) of the ruling class i.e. Politicians?

I'll help you out, it's called force. "Do as I say or this will happen to you." It's foolish and dangerous at best. Rule of law my backside, it's called the rule of the majority. If evil is legalized, does it make it any less evil?
 
#5,817
#5,817
allvol123 said:
Mostly, you don't like the answer because your question was too broad and stupid. Thus, you were unable to get the answer you desired.

I don't need to respect laws written by politicians I don't respect and enforced by buffoons I loathe.

The instances we are seeing lately are because technology has become so cheap and widely available. This is who cops are, not some anomalies.

To end, I don't care what you believe about me.
Click to expand...

What do u do when u break these laws
 
#5,825
#5,825
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Interesting choice of words there. The violent cop is a "guy" and the lady filming the police is a b&tch.
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He is a U.S. Marshall involved in a dangerous police action with a "girl" interjecting herself in the middle of it....she could have gotten herself, the cop, or anyone else killed bc of her stupidity.
 
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