To Protect and to Serve II

#10,128
#10,128
NCFisher said:
Yes, and I think churches and congregations have a clear choice I alluded to.

The recreation area was not private.
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The churches had no choice in the matter.

The recreational area was a public park that was closed, but all they were doing is playing basketball. Not exactly an activity worthy of arrest.
 
#10,129
#10,129
lawgator1 said:
Good luck getting people to go into law enforcement as a career. Also, your taxes will skyrocket to pay for all the lawyers you will need to defend the wave of lawsuits that would follow.
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It would not be that hard to codify a liability scheme that creates an incentive for municipalities to act responsibly and chuck the bad apples.

The way qualified immunity is currently being defined by courts is asinine and demonstrably harmful to society.
 
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#10,130
#10,130
RockyTop85 said:
It would not be that hard to codify a liability scheme that creates an incentive for municipalities to act responsibly and chuck the bad apples.

The way qualified immunity is currently being defined by courts is asinine and demonstrably harmful to society.
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Negligent hiring and retention claims against the agency or its governmental entity has nothing to do with qualified immunity. You can sue the Minneapolis police agency for hiring and keeping this guy on despite confirmed complaints, Has nothing to do with the immunity given to individual officers.

And one of the exceptions to QI is when the act is so clearly wrong that no prior cases on point are needed. Has to do more with nuanced things like what constitutes "hot pursuit" into a residence under Santana and Peyton than some patently obnoxious use of force.
 
#10,132
#10,132
NCFisher said:
And if they'd said the guy with the yarmulke went into the restroom, he'd have asked to search you. See, no racism there.

I do notice you don't allow your black friend to speak for himself during the encounter; do you gauge him as incapable?
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Except more witnesses said he didn’t so no need to search
I didn’t say he didn’t speak. Just because it’s not listed doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It was a paraphrased story not a novel. It’s clear from what you read into the story what you think. it really would help you to get some black friends. I promise they won’t hurt you
 
#10,134
#10,134
lawgator1 said:
Negligent hiring and retention claims against the agency or its governmental entity has nothing to do with qualified immunity. You can sue the Minneapolis police agency for hiring and keeping this guy on despite confirmed complaints, Has nothing to do with the immunity given to individual officers.

And one of the exceptions to QI is when the act is so clearly wrong that no prior cases on point are needed. Has to do more with nuanced things like what constitutes "hot pursuit" into a residence under Santana and Peyton than some patently obnoxious use of force.
Click to expand...

That scheme is an abject failure at anything other than preventing police from being held accountable and allowing them to implement brute force in the name of personal safety regardless of whether the situation actually calls for it.

I’m talking about creating an entirely different regulatory scheme that offers liability shields as an incentive for municipalities who take reasonable action to implement reforms and if those reforms produce a threshold level in reduced violence.

The point of eliminating limiting qualified immunity shouldn’t be retributive towards the individuals presently immune (like the twitter debate clearly is) it should be about creating Incentive for positive outcomes with minimal negative outcomes.

Just spitballing, but a system in which a municipality reaches safe harbor by establishing that it has taken x, y, and z best practices to reform police conduct and somehow shows a resulting improvement that meets some threshold would deter repetitious litigation naming the municipality, and essentially makes it an assault and battery case between officer and plaintiff. Maybe there are some special issues with respect to something like comparative negligence since most of these outcomes are the result of some form of resistance but for the most part the officer has some consequences to consider when he’s deciding whether or not to join his colleagues in a dog pile on a subdued suspect.
 
#10,136
#10,136
Rasputin_Vol said:
And see here is the danger and concern I have. It is very hard to put that genie back in the bottle. After all of this is said and done with China Virus, how easy will it be to bring things back to normal?

Look at how much we lost after 9/11?
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And it's a valid concern. I don't think a majority of Americans value their own liberty over their security. Been that way for some time, and pandemic just brought forward future leftist sales.

I am not optimistic about our national future. We're probably nearing $200T - trillion - in debt and unfunded liabilities, and TX may go blue in the next decade. We have rampant, corrupt bureaucracy. We'll likely go through a period of leftist fascism under the banner of 'democratic socialism'. This was a great pilot run.
 
#10,137
#10,137
Rasputin_Vol said:
The churches had no choice in the matter.

The recreational area was a public park that was closed, but all they were doing is playing basketball. Not exactly an activity worthy of arrest.
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I'll bet a scant few churches initially opposed the lockdowns. Their choice is to disobey continued government shutdown of their services.

He wasn't being arrested or even detained until he assaulted the officer.
 
#10,138
#10,138
Orangeslice13 said:
Except more witnesses said he didn’t so no need to search
I didn’t say he didn’t speak. Just because it’s not listed doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It was a paraphrased story not a novel. It’s clear from what you read into the story what you think. it really would help you to get some black friends. I promise they won’t hurt you
Click to expand...

I was being snide.
Then you're arguing he shouldn't have wanted to search anyone, and it's not a racial issue.

My partner is black and Latina, I'm often the only - or one of few - white people at gatherings, but thanks.
 
#10,140
#10,140
Orangeslice13 said:
I have read anything you posted in the last few posts beyond the first sentence.
You’re just not worth reading and barely worth responding too.

Get a black friend (no you don’t have any) and go around with them. See how they’re treated by law enforcement and then get back too me.
It’s possible that their crime rate would fall dramatically if the police left them alone. Check the status of crime rates when the cops go on strike
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I have had plenty of black friends, including one of my previous best men in my wedding, and they have never experienced anything like you are saying, outside of the normal pulled over for speeding type deals. And how would police "leaving anyone alone" would affect the crime rate? Either they are committing the crimes are they aren't
 
#10,142
#10,142
Orangeslice13 said:
Just before all this corona crap started I’m having lunch at Applebee’s with an employee a sub contractor and his employee. A police officer approached the table and said that someone had called the police because he had “misplaced” his wallet and thought he had maybe dropped it in the bathroom. I spoke up and said nobody at our table had been to the restroom. The officer said that the person had said he saw Nate (the black guy) go to the restroom. I again said “he’s mistaken, nobody here has been to the restroom”. The officer said to Nate “will you allow me to search you?” I told Nate “don’t do it, I’m calling the lawyer “ who I have on retainer. The police officer said to me “would you like to be arrested for disrupting the peace?” I said “hold on, when he answers and tells me how to answer you I’ll let you know”. 25 minutes later the officer left us alone and Nate remained un-searched. The only thing Nate did wrong was being a black business owner and my friend. The experience of Being around my black friends has taught me to be glad I’m Jewish so everyone thinks I’m white.
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Not really seeing what the officer did wrong. Sounds like the issue would be with the complainant. FYI if you impede an investigation (which sounds like this was) you can be arrested.
 
#10,146
#10,146
RockyTop85 said:
That scheme is an abject failure at anything other than preventing police from being held accountable and allowing them to implement brute force in the name of personal safety regardless of whether the situation actually calls for it.

I’m talking about creating an entirely different regulatory scheme that offers liability shields as an incentive for municipalities who take reasonable action to implement reforms and if those reforms produce a threshold level in reduced violence.

The point of eliminating limiting qualified immunity shouldn’t be retributive towards the individuals presently immune (like the twitter debate clearly is) it should be about creating Incentive for positive outcomes with minimal negative outcomes.

Just spitballing, but a system in which a municipality reaches safe harbor by establishing that it has taken x, y, and z best practices to reform police conduct and somehow shows a resulting improvement that meets some threshold would deter repetitious litigation naming the municipality, and essentially makes it an assault and battery case between officer and plaintiff. Maybe there are some special issues with respect to something like comparative negligence since most of these outcomes are the result of some form of resistance but for the most part the officer has some consequences to consider when he’s deciding whether or not to join his colleagues in a dog pile on a subdued suspect.
Click to expand...

As long as we are discussing reform. . .
The same should go throughout the justice system to include removing judges' immunity and to allow lawyers' liabilities to include non-clients.

Wonder how that would work out?
 
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#10,147
#10,147
NCFisher said:
I was being snide.
Then you're arguing he shouldn't have wanted to search anyone, and it's not a racial issue.

My partner is black and Latina, I'm often the only - or one of few - white people at gatherings, but thanks.
Click to expand...
Ya I figured we were just tradings shots at this point.

I could post an article where crime fell during a police strike in New York then you can post where crime soared in Brazil during a strike and then we could take this racism debate in an all new direction
 
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