To Protect and to Serve II

#10,102
#10,102
Orangeslice13 said:
Police: Sixth-leading cause of death for young black men
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That article is dubious. Zero reference to the study, no actual citations of data..and if any old Joe does minor research you'll find the average rate of black person death by cop over the past decade is around 0.0008%, and I adjusted that for black males only. Its mostly 200ish people a year. 200 deaths a year doesnt land you on any top 10 list.

Black males have a 200% higher chance of drowning in a pool than being shot by a cop for instance.
 
#10,103
#10,103
NYC paid out $220 million to citizens due to police misconduct in 2018. That is an amazing stat, but according to most of you it is probably all just BS.
 
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#10,105
#10,105
FLVOL_79 said:
That article is dubious. Zero reference to the study, no actual citations of data..and if any old Joe does minor research you'll find the average rate of black person death by cop over the past decade is around 0.0008%, and I adjusted that for black males only. Its mostly 200ish people a year. 200 deaths a year doesnt land you on any top 10 list.

Black males have a 200% higher chance of drowning in a pool than being shot by a cop for instance.
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is that with or without the police holding them under water
 
#10,106
#10,106
Orangeslice13 said:
is that with or without the police holding them under water
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Oh..good question! 4500 drownings the other year..probably half were cops holding them down. Dang, my statistics blown up.

In all seriousness I'd say about 95% of cop shooting deaths probably could have been avoided with non lethal means.
 
#10,107
#10,107
FLVOL_79 said:
Oh..good question! 4500 drownings the other year..probably half were cops holding them down. Dang, my statistics blown up.

In all seriousness I'd say about 95% of cop shooting deaths probably could have been avoided with non lethal means.
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I caused this distraction by bringing race into it. The racism is a small part of a larger policing problem.
I think we would agree it’s a training and accountability problem that’s the real issue. We solve those and we clear up a lot of things.
 
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#10,110
#10,110
Rasputin_Vol said:
It is the very first amendment and these police were out here enforcing executive orders that violated the 1st Amendment.



This is where protesting comes into play. Because what they did was not a law, but an executive order. Laws are created by the legislature. You do realize this, right? None of these shutdowns were legal because they were not based on law.




So the very people that we entrust with having a gun and a badge, we shouldn't entrust in knowing the Constitution? Something that they take an oath to uphold?

Make sense of that.
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I disagree; you don't have the right to assemble anywhere, anytime, or in whatever number you wish unless you're on private property. Even then, you can't unduly disturb or interfere with the rights of others around/adjacent to you.

Being a law passes the prima facie test of constitutionality, but may not meet it in substance, and courts are as subjective in decisions of constitutionality as laymen. For example we see some lower level courts deciding for the plaintiff against the state re: business openings and religious gatherings, but others - most recently SCOTUS - going against. But we're going to expect cops to be their constitutional superiors and decide which laws to enforce? I don't think so.

Executives are granted the power of issuing orders by legislatures and constitutions, and those powers are pretty broad in emergencies. Such orders have force of law. If the legislature or executive dictated that religious gatherings were simply no longer allowed, not related to a temporary emergency, I'd agree cops should not enforce it. But this isn't that. *I* think the restrictions are well past their prime and though lawful, no longer serve a legitimate state interest. People could take back that right today by simply disobeying en masse.

The fact is, from clergyman to congregation, there's not yet the will do so and much of that is rooted in denominations being compromised by secular leftism. I'm not going to blame LEOs for something the religious themselves don't care enough to challenge.
 
#10,111
#10,111
Orangeslice13 said:
Edit:
If you think skin color makes a difference then you’re a ****ing moron.
Let’s see your table on how black people are investigated, charged, and sentenced compared to others.
DNA proves there’s no difference in us.
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If you can't make an argument when facts are slapping you in the face without resorting to "racism!", I submit you are "a ****ing moron". It's the unthinking defense of the intellectually debased.

Cultural and societal norms - or lack of - proves there's a grave difference. That they're pigmented is irrelevant.

Are you aware that headed into the 1960s, blacks married and had children in marriage at rates quite similar to whites? That illegitimacy rates were in the low 20-percentile range but since has flipped and there's barely a 25% legitimacy rate today? Tell me, what destroyed the black family that several hundred years of slavery and discrimination couldn't?

Gee, I don't find that amidst the NAACP's webpage musings, either.
With all the climate and fat injustice that's killing blacks, I guess they've no time for it.
 
#10,112
#10,112
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#10,115
#10,115
Orangeslice13 said:
Just before all this corona crap started I’m having lunch at Applebee’s with an employee a sub contractor and his employee. A police officer approached the table and said that someone had called the police because he had “misplaced” his wallet and thought he had maybe dropped it in the bathroom. I spoke up and said nobody at our table had been to the restroom. The officer said that the person had said he saw Nate (the black guy) go to the restroom. I again said “he’s mistaken, nobody here has been to the restroom”. The officer said to Nate “will you allow me to search you?” I told Nate “don’t do it, I’m calling the lawyer “ who I have on retainer. The police officer said to me “would you like to be arrested for disrupting the peace?” I said “hold on, when he answers and tells me how to answer you I’ll let you know”. 25 minutes later the officer left us alone and Nate remained un-searched. The only thing Nate did wrong was being a black business owner and my friend. The experience of Being around my black friends has taught me to be glad I’m Jewish so everyone thinks I’m white.
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And if they'd said the guy with the yarmulke went into the restroom, he'd have asked to search you. See, no racism there.

I do notice you don't allow your black friend to speak for himself during the encounter; do you gauge him as incapable?
 
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#10,116
#10,116
NCFisher said:
The problem is with governors, mayors, and political police chiefs, not line officers.
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You’re half right.

There is a significant problem with legislative bloat, particularly in terms of overly broad criminal statutes. Some of which has been advocated by police and prosecution lobbyists.

That doesn’t entirely absolve the police of the frat house/good ole boy/paramilitary occupying force culture that has developed among some departments or some officers.
 
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#10,118
#10,118
NCFisher said:
*I* think the restrictions are well past their prime and though lawful, no longer serve a legitimate state interest. People could take back that right today by simply disobeying en masse.
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And see here is the danger and concern I have. It is very hard to put that genie back in the bottle. After all of this is said and done with China Virus, how easy will it be to bring things back to normal?

Look at how much we lost after 9/11?
 
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#10,119
#10,119
Government/systemic Issues:
Overbroad criminal statutes.
Excessive number of criminal statutes.
Too little delegation of discretion to officers.
Underpaid officers.
Officer’s unions.
Lack of accountability for officers who misuse discretion.
Improper training that includes teaching officers their lives are always in danger and that they should be quick to resort to brutal measures to force compliance.
Hidden quotas.
Poor feedback/evaluation structure.


Individual Officer issues:
Power trip requiring absolute immediate compliance during every citizen encounter.
Dishonesty in sworn pleadings and testimony.
Lack of courtesy and professionalism.
Sense of Self-righteousness that justifies breaking the rules and lying about it.
Willingness to cover for or not speak out against co-workers.

Societal issues:
Increasingly common violence towards police officers.
Willingness to sacrifice other people’s liberty for personal security.
Criminal behavior, including manipulative dishonesty.

These are not exhaustive lists, I’m sure, but I think most of the more potent exacerbating factors are on there.
 
#10,120
#10,120
NCFisher said:
If you can't make an argument when facts are slapping you in the face without resorting to "racism!", I submit you are "a ****ing moron". It's the unthinking defense of the intellectually debased.

Cultural and societal norms - or lack of - proves there's a grave difference. That they're pigmented is irrelevant.

Are you aware that headed into the 1960s, blacks married and had children in marriage at rates quite similar to whites? That illegitimacy rates were in the low 20-percentile range but since has flipped and there's barely a 25% legitimacy rate today? Tell me, what destroyed the black family that several hundred years of slavery and discrimination couldn't?


Gee, I don't find that amidst the NAACP's webpage musings, either.
With all the climate and fat injustice that's killing blacks, I guess they've no time for it.
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I have read anything you posted in the last few posts beyond the first sentence.
You’re just not worth reading and barely worth responding too.

Get a black friend (no you don’t have any) and go around with them. See how they’re treated by law enforcement and then get back too me.
It’s possible that their crime rate would fall dramatically if the police left them alone. Check the status of crime rates when the cops go on strike
 
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#10,122
#10,122
RockyTop85 said:
You’re half right.

There is a significant problem with legislative bloat, particularly in terms of overly broad criminal statutes. Some of which has been advocated by police and prosecution lobbyists.

That doesn’t entirely absolve the police of the frat house/good ole boy/paramilitary occupying force culture that has developed among some departments or some officers.
Click to expand...

I referred to the specific post of police not stopping widespread looting, but being deployed to keep them closed; a bureaucratic problem.

In the broader sense, though, I agree and have criticized the paramilitarization of police, and over-criminalization by political interests on either side.
 
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