To Protect and to Serve II

[NCFisher]

Earlier you said that they should just stop policing in the communities and see how everyone likes it. (Not an exact quote I realize) there has to be a 3rd option. It cannot be that our 2 choices are ****** law enforcement and no law enforcement

No, I didn't; I stated that would be instructive and especially for the people who want to make this about race. You seemed to think that logical exercise a great idea in practicality.

We have one choice and that is to have law enforcement and hold bad cops, or grossly negligent cops, responsible on a case by case basis.
And we should not stop with holding police to the same standard as any other, but also hold the black community to the same standard as every other racial and ethnic community. And hold rioters and looters to the same standard as any other criminal and forcibly restrain their violence.

 

[NCFisher]

If that local ordinance conflicts with the Constitution, it shouldn't be enforced. How can you not understand that? These China Virus lockdowns where people were thrown to the ground and arrested for playing in parks and beaches across the country shows the police in our country have a systemic problem with following their oath and protecting the rights of the people.



Both incidents are examples of the police not following their sworn duties. That is absolutely at the heart of the matter. It is of little significance that one involved the loss of liberties and the other involved the loss of life. Both are violations that deserve equal attention.



Cops would do themselves a huge favor from now on if they would obey their oath and treat their fellow man better than to engage in the foolishness these lawmakers have them doing. All cops do is enforce laws (no matter how trivial) and collect revenue.

How is closing a recreational area a violation of the constitution? This guy wasn't thrown to the ground, etc, but was told the area was closed whereupon Thug #1 and #2 had to turn it into a confrontation and punching an officer?

Again, I'm waiting for the case to be made the officer violated the constitution by stating the area is closed.

That's why it's termed law enforcement. You don't like those laws, your problem is with your legislature or local/state executive.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

How is closing a recreational area a violation of the constitution? This guy wasn't thrown to the ground, etc, but was told the area was closed whereupon Thug #1 and #2 had to turn it into a confrontation and punching an officer?

In that particular incident, it wasn't a violation. But the city should have never closed the park down to begin with.

My main point is mainly directed at far better cases and examples of cops enforcing gatherings at churches and restaurants and using force to do so. Totally uncalled for and unconstitutional.

That's why it's termed law enforcement. You don't like those laws, your problem is with your legislature or local/state executive.

They lawmakers are also the problem. I agree. But that doesn't mean that the police need to enforce these unconstitutional laws.

How hard is that for you to understand?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Your family should have sued. What was your cousins name and when did this happen?

I’m possibly in violation of a gag order so no more information will be coming and I will not mention it again.

 

[Orangeslice13]

No, I didn't; I stated that would be instructive and especially for the people who want to make this about race. You seemed to think that logical exercise a great idea in practicality.

We have one choice and that is to have law enforcement and hold bad cops, or grossly negligent cops, responsible on a case by case basis.
And we should not stop with holding police to the same standard as any other, but also hold the black community to the same standard as every other racial and ethnic community. And hold rioters and looters to the same standard as any other criminal and forcibly restrain their violence.

I apologize if I misunderstood or misrepresented you.
That was not my intention.

In 2020 with what we know about DNA, anyone who thinks they’re better/worse than another person based on pigmentations is a ****ing moron.
Having said that .........death by police is the 6th leading cause of death in African American men. That’s a problem that needs to be solved

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Denzel Washington has to come and deescalate a situation between a homeless man and the notorious LAPD. Are the cops really this inept at being able to detain people? Or are most cops just used to being on power trips?

 

[rgx]

I would like to see the source for death by police being the 6th leading cause of death for AA men.

CDC says otherwise:
From the CDC-Leading Causes of Death-Non-Hispanic Black Males 2016

 

[Orangeslice13]

Police: Sixth-leading cause of death for young black men

 

[n_huffhines]

Police: Sixth-leading cause of death for young black men

That seems crazy.

 

[Orangeslice13]

That seems crazy.

Yup.
You should definitely avoid being black while around the police

 

[37L1]

Do you really think that filling out a piece of paper is enough to change anything with these cops? I'm asking seriously because I can't believe you are that naïve.

Naive is an unrealistic belief without real experience to back it up. I'm not naive.

FYI, a process is begun once that "filling out a piece of paper" has been completed in many/most jurisdictions. Depending on the alleged misconduct, a lot of things can happen including immediate suspension with pay pending the completion of an I/A investigation which could ultimately include termination and criminal charges. Yes, it does happen. Other discipline can occur depending on the nature of the complaint and the findings of the investigation.

Ultimately, it is the head of the department that sets the tone of how complaints are handled. The procedures for handling complaints are written as part of the agency's general orders/rules and procedures. They are drawn up from general practices of most departments/police organizations/police professional standards, massaged/blessed by attorneys and signed by the department head as approved policy. She/he sets the standards by which the personnel are supposed to conduct themselves. That's where I would look if you are unhappy/dissatisfied with a particular agency's behavior.

Those agency complaint procedures are public information. You have the ability to ask for them from any agency that you may be interested in. Many have them on line like this one (first one on search):

Complaint About Police

What do you mean by "these cops"? Is it all cops in general or what?

 

[Rickyvol77]

Naive is an unrealistic belief without real experience to back it up. I'm not naive.

FYI, a process is begun once that "filling out a piece of paper" has been completed in many/most jurisdictions. Depending on the alleged misconduct, a lot of things can happen including immediate suspension with pay pending the completion of an I/A investigation which could ultimately include termination and criminal charges. Yes, it does happen. Other discipline can occur depending on the nature of the complaint and the findings of the investigation.

Ultimately, it is the head of the department that sets the tone of how complaints are handled. The procedures for handling complaints are written as part of the agency's general orders/rules and procedures. They are drawn up from general practices of most departments/police organizations/police professional standards, massaged/blessed by attorneys and signed by the department head as approved policy. She/he sets the standards by which the personnel are supposed to conduct themselves. That's where I would look if you are unhappy/dissatisfied with a particular agency's behavior.

Those agency complaint procedures are public information. You have the ability to ask for them from any agency that you may be interested in. Many have them on line like this one (first one on search):

Complaint About Police

What do you mean by "these cops"? Is it all cops in general or what?

He believes all cops and laws are bad

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What do you mean by "these cops"? Is it all cops in general or what?

I'm generalizing. There are good cops and bad cops. Can't paint a broad brush.

Anyways, I'm sure cops look at the media or are aware of these police/civilian incidents. I would probably mean more and be more effective if cops actually were the ones that initiated the necessary change without the people having to fuss and complain. Certainly, they can see a need for improvement, can't they? Also, it would be nice if the cops collectively sent a message to all lawmakers that they are no longer going to enforce their unconstitutional laws and mandates... that includes this nonsense we had with this China Virus where civil liberties were trampled on as the cops zealous enforced these executive orders (not laws, orders).

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

He believes all cops and laws are bad

No, let me be crystal clear. I think there are far too many bad cops, not all cops.

I also think that there are far too many laws, some of which are unconstitutional.

The bad cops zealously enforce bad laws. Or the bad cops don't enforce the laws fairly and equally. Or the bad cops exhibit little to no discernment and discretion when it comes to enforcing laws. Not every infraction needs to end in an arrest or a citation.

 

[NCFisher]

I apologize if I misunderstood or misrepresented you.
That was not my intention.

In 2020 with what we know about DNA, anyone who thinks they’re better/worse than another person based on pigmentations is a ****ing moron.
Having said that .........death by police is the 6th leading cause of death in African American men. That’s a problem that needs to be solved

It has nothing to do with DNA but simple fact that black Americans are violent criminal offenders at grossly disproportionate rates to their population, including the murder of officers. Their 13% of the population account for more than half of all murder and robberies, and have for decades. Table 43

But thanks for resorting to "racism!" anyway. Not even being able to discuss the problems within the black community even academically/ sociologically is only prolonging the problem. Hell, the NAACP webpage has plenty of room for climate justice, fat justice, and media justice but no room to talk about the elephant in the room - black people killing black people. For example, in 2018 blacks were responsible for 88% of black homicide victims. Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Your statistic isn't accurate. Police homicides run about 1000 yearly, and approximately 25% will be black and 50% white, or about 250 blacks. In 2017, for example, CDC shows 9908 blacks were homicide victims (justifiable and murder) and that was the 7th leading cause of death among black men. About 8719 (88%) would have been killed by black offenders and 1189 by all other races. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf (page 12). You can also refer to page 34 for Non-Hispanic black, male, all ages

CDC lists 16 leading causes of death. For black Americans, at #16 is suicide at 2940, which would be more than 10x as many as the potential 250 that may have been killed by police. So, while homicide figures large in black deaths, police killings are not the 6th leading cause of their deaths.

Consider what is being said next time before piping off about "morons".

 

[NCFisher]

In that particular incident, it wasn't a violation. But the city should have never closed the park down to begin with.

My main point is mainly directed at far better cases and examples of cops enforcing gatherings at churches and restaurants and using force to do so. Totally uncalled for and unconstitutional.

They lawmakers are also the problem. I agree. But that doesn't mean that the police need to enforce these unconstitutional laws.

How hard is that for you to understand?

How hard is it to understand that what you consider unconstitutional may be entirely subjective, your bias?

I may not like a recreation area being closed but what I like has no force of law. I think the restrictions have gone on too long, but can't logically argue that restrictions were completely unfounded initially, nor that they were unconstitutional. LEOs are not constitutional lawyers, and I'd be damned hesitant about them staying at a Holiday Inn Express, assuming they are, and selectively enforcing laws.

I think churches and businesses should peacefully disobey en masse, and not take bad executive orders/laws out on police. They can easily overwhelm the ability to enforce in that manner, tossing the bag back into the law-makers' laps.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

How hard is it to understand that what you consider unconstitutional may be entirely subjective, your bias?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It is the very first amendment and these police were out here enforcing executive orders that violated the 1st Amendment.

I may not like a recreation area being closed but what I like has no force of law.

This is where protesting comes into play. Because what they did was not a law, but an executive order. Laws are created by the legislature. You do realize this, right? None of these shutdowns were legal because they were not based on law.

I think the restrictions have gone on too long, but can't logically argue that restrictions were completely unfounded initially, nor that they were unconstitutional. LEOs are not constitutional lawyers, and I'd be damned hesitant about them staying at a Holiday Inn Express, assuming they are, and selectively enforcing laws.

So the very people that we entrust with having a gun and a badge, we shouldn't entrust in knowing the Constitution? Something that they take an oath to uphold?

Make sense of that.

 

[SandoVOL]

It has nothing to do with DNA but simple fact that black Americans are violent criminal offenders at grossly disproportionate rates to their population, including the murder of officers. Their 13% of the population account for more than half of all murder and robberies, and have for decades. Table 43

But thanks for resorting to "racism!" anyway. Not even being able to discuss the problems within the black community even academically/ sociologically is only prolonging the problem. Hell, the NAACP webpage has plenty of room for climate justice, fat justice, and media justice but no room to talk about the elephant in the room - black people killing black people. For example, in 2018 blacks were responsible for 88% of black homicide victims. Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Your statistic isn't accurate. Police homicides run about 1000 yearly, and approximately 25% will be black and 50% white, or about 250 blacks. In 2017, for example, CDC shows 9908 blacks were homicide victims (justifiable and murder) and that was the 7th leading cause of death among black men. About 8719 (88%) would have been killed by black offenders and 1189 by all other races. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf (page 12). You can also refer to page 34 for Non-Hispanic black, male, all ages

CDC lists 16 leading causes of death. For black Americans, at #16 is suicide at 2940, which would be more than 10x as many as the potential 250 that may have been killed by police. So, while homicide figures large in black deaths, police killings are not the 6th leading cause of their deaths.

Consider what is being said next time before piping off about "morons".

The Death by police stat doesn't account for the race of the police officer either yea? which if you are playing the race card it doesn't put the numbers their favor. Unless we don't consider minority police officers minorites...

 

[Velo Vol]

 

[rgx]

Police: Sixth-leading cause of death for young black men

There are no hard numbers in that article. Only a correlation of deaths per 100,000. I would also like to know what they classify as “medical emergency” and how that is related to police interaction? What age group classifies as young black males?

I would guess the stats are cherry picked to fit the researchers original thesis. Even if deaths caused by police are under reported by 50% from the CDC. That would be approximately 300 deaths a year on average. I find it hard to belive that 300 deaths in a year is top 6 cause for approximately 21,000,000 black males.

 

[Orangeslice13]

It has nothing to do with DNA but simple fact that black Americans are violent criminal offenders at grossly disproportionate rates to their population, including the murder of officers. Their 13% of the population account for more than half of all murder and robberies, and have for decades. Table 43

But thanks for resorting to "racism!" anyway. Not even being able to discuss the problems within the black community even academically/ sociologically is only prolonging the problem. Hell, the NAACP webpage has plenty of room for climate justice, fat justice, and media justice but no room to talk about the elephant in the room - black people killing black people. For example, in 2018 blacks were responsible for 88% of black homicide victims. Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Your statistic isn't accurate. Police homicides run about 1000 yearly, and approximately 25% will be black and 50% white, or about 250 blacks. In 2017, for example, CDC shows 9908 blacks were homicide victims (justifiable and murder) and that was the 7th leading cause of death among black men. About 8719 (88%) would have been killed by black offenders and 1189 by all other races. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_06-508.pdf (page 12). You can also refer to page 34 for Non-Hispanic black, male, all ages

CDC lists 16 leading causes of death. For black Americans, at #16 is suicide at 2940, which would be more than 10x as many as the potential 250 that may have been killed by police. So, while homicide figures large in black deaths, police killings are not the 6th leading cause of their deaths.

Consider what is being said next time before piping off about "morons".

Edit:
If you think skin color makes a difference then you’re a ****ing moron.
Let’s see your table on how black people are investigated, charged, and sentenced compared to others.
DNA proves there’s no difference in us.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Edit: comment removed

This is a police problem that extends beyond systemic racism which is just a small part of it.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Justin Amash for president.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

 

[Orangeslice13]

Just before all this corona crap started I’m having lunch at Applebee’s with an employee a sub contractor and his employee. A police officer approached the table and said that someone had called the police because he had “misplaced” his wallet and thought he had maybe dropped it in the bathroom. I spoke up and said nobody at our table had been to the restroom. The officer said that the person had said he saw Nate (the black guy) go to the restroom. I again said “he’s mistaken, nobody here has been to the restroom”. The officer said to Nate “will you allow me to search you?” I told Nate “don’t do it, I’m calling the lawyer “ who I have on retainer. The police officer said to me “would you like to be arrested for disrupting the peace?” I said “hold on, when he answers and tells me how to answer you I’ll let you know”. 25 minutes later the officer left us alone and Nate remained un-searched. The only thing Nate did wrong was being a black business owner and my friend. The experience of Being around my black friends has taught me to be glad I’m Jewish so everyone thinks I’m white.