To Protect and to Serve II

#2,951
#2,951
Rasputin_Vol said:
Let's start from the very beginning. Why were they protesting in the first place ("Justice for Isiah", whoever that may be)? Lets address the cause before we deal with the effects.
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Let's start from the beginning? Sure, I had no idea who Isiah was until I looked it up. Kinda surprised you didn't post it here already, but anyway. You posted it later, so good on you for doing a bit of research. Now, on to the matter that is at hand.

These people are protesting, good on them for using their First Amendment Right to do so. However, what gives them the right to block a city street and keep people from going wherever they are going while doing so? They started on the sidewalks according to one article I read which would have been perfectly fine. But let's go block an intersection and argue with a couple in a car that likely had nothing to do with the incident.

Second, St Louis and the surrounding areas isn't exactly what we would call a bastion of rational thought. How long does it take for a mob to get out of control?

Third, you invoked the Second Amendment in your later post, good. Do you think the driver might have felt his safety (or his passenger's safety) was in question after the mob surrounded the vehicle? Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_SgpyJWRY

Or this?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_5d7c259d-1dd6-5223-bd3d-bb67322cf9bd.html

Yeah, it gets out of hand quickly. Yes, the driver should have felt very apprehensive about getting surrounded by a bunch of protesters and not being allowed to leave the place they didn't want to be.

This is a very simple concept, Ras. Your right to protest does not trump my right to not be involved in your protest. Nor does it trump my right to go hither and dither as I please. Blocking traffic does zero good for the "cause" whatever that cause may be. It does nothing but turn ordinary people that might have been neutral otherwise against what you are standing for. And the quicker these "protesters" learn that, the better off we all will be.

Which do you think will attract more supporters and be remembered in a better light? Speaking rationally and explaining why you are protesting and asking for support? Or blocking traffic while screaming in a bullhorn and not allowing vehicles to leave?
 
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#2,952
#2,952
Grand Vol said:
Let's start from the beginning? Sure, I had no idea who Isiah was until I looked it up. Kinda surprised you didn't post it here already, but anyway. You posted it later, so good on you for doing a bit of research. Now, on to the matter that is at hand.

These people are protesting, good on them for using their First Amendment Right to do so. However, what gives them the right to block a city street and keep people from going wherever they are going while doing so? They started on the sidewalks according to one article I read which would have been perfectly fine. But let's go block an intersection and argue with a couple in a car that likely had nothing to do with the incident.

Second, St Louis and the surrounding areas isn't exactly what we would call a bastion of rational thought. How long does it take for a mob to get out of control?

Third, you invoked the Second Amendment in your later post, good. Do you think the driver might have felt his safety (or his passenger's safety) was in question after the mob surrounded the vehicle? Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_SgpyJWRY

Or this?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_5d7c259d-1dd6-5223-bd3d-bb67322cf9bd.html

Yeah, it gets out of hand quickly. Yes, the driver should have felt very apprehensive about getting surrounded by a bunch of protesters and not being allowed to leave the place they didn't want to be.

This is a very simple concept, Ras. Your right to protest does not trump my right to not be involved in your protest. Nor does it trump my right to go hither and dither as I please. Blocking traffic does zero good for the "cause" whatever that cause may be. It does nothing but turn ordinary people that might have been neutral otherwise against what you are standing for. And the quicker these "protesters" learn that, the better off we all will be.

Which do you think will attract more supporters and be remembered in a better light? Speaking rationally and explaining why you are protesting and asking for support? Or blocking traffic while screaming in a bullhorn and not allowing vehicles to leave?
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
#2,953
#2,953
hndog609 said:
A traffic stop is initiated by the officer. It is EXCEEDINGLY reasonable for a citizen to expect LEO to articulate why they are being detained prior to divulging information. Moreover, doing so doesn't bring about any greater burden to the LEO that I can see.
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I don't disagree. I said earlier the cop was an ass, but if the law states that he/she must give ID regardless of the situation as a condition to drive on public roads, then he should have complied. If people don't like the law have it changed.
 
#2,954
#2,954
Grand Vol said:
Let's start from the beginning? Sure, I had no idea who Isiah was until I looked it up. Kinda surprised you didn't post it here already, but anyway. You posted it later, so good on you for doing a bit of research. Now, on to the matter that is at hand.

These people are protesting, good on them for using their First Amendment Right to do so. However, what gives them the right to block a city street and keep people from going wherever they are going while doing so? They started on the sidewalks according to one article I read which would have been perfectly fine. But let's go block an intersection and argue with a couple in a car that likely had nothing to do with the incident.

Second, St Louis and the surrounding areas isn't exactly what we would call a bastion of rational thought. How long does it take for a mob to get out of control?

Third, you invoked the Second Amendment in your later post, good. Do you think the driver might have felt his safety (or his passenger's safety) was in question after the mob surrounded the vehicle? Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_SgpyJWRY

Or this?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_5d7c259d-1dd6-5223-bd3d-bb67322cf9bd.html

Yeah, it gets out of hand quickly. Yes, the driver should have felt very apprehensive about getting surrounded by a bunch of protesters and not being allowed to leave the place they didn't want to be.

This is a very simple concept, Ras. Your right to protest does not trump my right to not be involved in your protest. Nor does it trump my right to go hither and dither as I please. Blocking traffic does zero good for the "cause" whatever that cause may be. It does nothing but turn ordinary people that might have been neutral otherwise against what you are standing for. And the quicker these "protesters" learn that, the better off we all will be.

Which do you think will attract more supporters and be remembered in a better light? Speaking rationally and explaining why you are protesting and asking for support? Or blocking traffic while screaming in a bullhorn and not allowing vehicles to leave?
Click to expand...

What he said. The people in the car had their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in jeopardy. I don't see the issue with running down the great white whale in that instance
 
#2,955
#2,955
Grand Vol said:
Let's start from the beginning? Sure, I had no idea who Isiah was until I looked it up. Kinda surprised you didn't post it here already, but anyway. You posted it later, so good on you for doing a bit of research. Now, on to the matter that is at hand.

These people are protesting, good on them for using their First Amendment Right to do so. However, what gives them the right to block a city street and keep people from going wherever they are going while doing so? They started on the sidewalks according to one article I read which would have been perfectly fine. But let's go block an intersection and argue with a couple in a car that likely had nothing to do with the incident.

Second, St Louis and the surrounding areas isn't exactly what we would call a bastion of rational thought. How long does it take for a mob to get out of control?

Third, you invoked the Second Amendment in your later post, good. Do you think the driver might have felt his safety (or his passenger's safety) was in question after the mob surrounded the vehicle? Remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_SgpyJWRY

Or this?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_5d7c259d-1dd6-5223-bd3d-bb67322cf9bd.html

Yeah, it gets out of hand quickly. Yes, the driver should have felt very apprehensive about getting surrounded by a bunch of protesters and not being allowed to leave the place they didn't want to be.

This is a very simple concept, Ras. Your right to protest does not trump my right to not be involved in your protest. Nor does it trump my right to go hither and dither as I please. Blocking traffic does zero good for the "cause" whatever that cause may be. It does nothing but turn ordinary people that might have been neutral otherwise against what you are standing for. And the quicker these "protesters" learn that, the better off we all will be.

Which do you think will attract more supporters and be remembered in a better light? Speaking rationally and explaining why you are protesting and asking for support? Or blocking traffic while screaming in a bullhorn and not allowing vehicles to leave?
Click to expand...

Everything you posted here with regards to the protesters and the passengers in the car is reasonable. However, you didn't go far enough in time to address the cause and origins of all of this. Lets get to the highlighted at the very end.

The truth is that people for decades have tried both rational conversation and counter-productive/disruptive protests to voice their anger at these violent police/citizen interactions. Nothing gets done and nothing ever changes. Cops kill citizens at nearly 10X's more than citizens kill cops, they harass citizens over the pettiest of infractions, they impede citizens travel in a not much different manner than these protesters with their DUI/seatbelt checkpoints, and they generally carry themselves like they are above the law in a majority of their interactions with citizens.

The origins of all of this is we need police to behave better and regain (or just gain) the trust and respect of the people. Until that happens, you're going to see more of this nonsense.
 
#2,956
#2,956
utvols88 said:
What he said. The people in the car had their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in jeopardy. I don't see the issue with running down the great white whale in that instance
Click to expand...

Again, lets go back to the origins of all of this.

Why were these people protesting in the first place?
 
#2,962
#2,962
Grand Vol said:
Not in Ras' world.
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Excuse me for focusing on the cause of the protest to begin with instead of focusing on the results.

The aim is to prevent things like this from happening again. Or, we can just put our heads in the sand and continue as we have been and allow this to really reach a fever pitch.
 
#2,963
#2,963
Rasputin_Vol said:
Excuse me for focusing on the cause of the protest to begin with instead of focusing on the results.

The aim is to prevent things like this from happening again. Or, we can just put our heads in the sand and continue as we have been and allow this to really reach a fever pitch.
Click to expand...

Excuse me for not forgiving a bunch of rabble-rousers causing more harm than good to their cause. At some point land whale should have figured out she made her point and moved her fat ass out of the way and allowed traffic to move. She got what was coming to her. Again, play stupid games, get results.

Now, I don't know the full story on the raid that killed the individual in question. All I can read are the reports in the news and draw my own conclusions from that. He was allegedly dealing narcotics (though none were found) and fired at the SWAT team as they entered the home after, again allegedly, announcing themselves.

Now I do know this level of civil disobedience is not helping at all. Let me ask you this, how many of them voted in the last election? Or intend to in the next election? Don't care about the President or Congress, I want to know how many voted for local leaders who would promise police reform. A DA who would get in and start looking deeper into the police using force (it's already started by the way).

There's an old saying: soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box. They are on their soap box and using it in the way wrong way. I'd bet half or more don't use the ballot box even though it's the easiest way to get a DA and City Council voted in that's sympathetic to their cause. They have a jury box to use after that DA gets installed, and we'll have to see how the new one reacts to this. And let's hope it never gets to the ammo box level.
 
#2,964
#2,964
Grand Vol said:
Excuse me for not forgiving a bunch of rabble-rousers causing more harm than good to their cause. At some point land whale should have figured out she made her point and moved her fat ass out of the way and allowed traffic to move. She got what was coming to her. Again, play stupid games, get results.

Now, I don't know the full story on the raid that killed the individual in question. All I can read are the reports in the news and draw my own conclusions from that. He was allegedly dealing narcotics (though none were found) and fired at the SWAT team as they entered the home after, again allegedly, announcing themselves.

Now I do know this level of civil disobedience is not helping at all. Let me ask you this, how many of them voted in the last election? Or intend to in the next election? Don't care about the President or Congress, I want to know how many voted for local leaders who would promise police reform. A DA who would get in and start looking deeper into the police using force (it's already started by the way).

There's an old saying: soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box. They are on their soap box and using it in the way wrong way. I'd bet half or more don't use the ballot box even though it's the easiest way to get a DA and City Council voted in that's sympathetic to their cause. They have a jury box to use after that DA gets installed, and we'll have to see how the new one reacts to this. And let's hope it never gets to the ammo box level.
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Voting doesn't change things.
 
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#2,966
#2,966
Rasputin_Vol said:
Excuse me for focusing on the cause of the protest to begin with instead of focusing on the results.

The aim is to prevent things like this from happening again. Or, we can just put our heads in the sand and continue as we have been and allow this to really reach a fever pitch.
Click to expand...

an injustice does not ever qualify another instance of injustice. I can't believe I have to say this...
 
#2,967
#2,967
utvols88 said:
an injustice does not ever qualify another instance of injustice. I can't believe I have to say this...
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Deal with the first injustice and everything else will work itself out. But of course, the easy answer is to just focus on the protesters wrong doings, though.

We can deal with the injustice of the cops by voting, however.
 
#2,968
#2,968
Rasputin_Vol said:
Excuse me for focusing on the cause of the protest to begin with instead of focusing on the results.

The aim is to prevent things like this from happening again. Or, we can just put our heads in the sand and continue as we have been and allow this to really reach a fever pitch.
Click to expand...

I'm not certain you understand negative association. Protest is fine. Protest where people come away with a poor view of the protesters is at best not going to help the cause and may even bring about a negative bias.
 
#2,969
#2,969
Rasputin_Vol said:
Deal with the first injustice and everything else will work itself out. But of course, the easy answer is to just focus on the protesters wrong doings, though.

We can deal with the injustice of the cops by voting, however.
Click to expand...

And this is why one cannot have a rational discussion with you in this thread. You go full retard eventually taking something out of context.

You want to know what the problem is and the one you are ignoring? The shooting happened on June 7th. These protests were the same damn night. This isn't a protest over a lack of indictment for the cop or a trial that doesn't go their way. This is pure rabble-rousing as I stated before. The body practically wasn't even cold by the time they hit the streets protesting for "justice." The investigation into the shooting hadn't even started and they are screaming for "justice."

These are Social Justice instigators that aren't concerned with anything justice related. Trouble makers, nothing more, nothing less.
 
#2,970
#2,970
Not only do I not give a rat's anus what happened to senorita lardo, I hope she has to pay for any damage done to the person's car.
 
#2,971
#2,971
Rasputin_Vol said:
Deal with the first injustice and everything else will work itself out. But of course, the easy answer is to just focus on the protesters wrong doings, though.

We can deal with the injustice of the cops by voting, however.
Click to expand...

"Bob murders Sue. But Bob shouldn't be charged because Tiffany hit his friends car with a bat.

If you took care of Tiffany hitting a car with a bat first, Bob wouldn't have had to murder Sue. Bob did nothing wrong"

That's you. That's how ****ing dumb you sound.
 
#2,972
#2,972
utvols88 said:
"Bob murders Sue. But Bob shouldn't be charged because Tiffany hit his friends car with a bat.

If you took care of Tiffany hitting a car with a bat first, Bob wouldn't have had to murder Sue. Bob did nothing wrong"

That's you. That's how ****ing dumb you sound.
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No, in your example, the greatest injustice followed the first action. In the case of this St. Louis incident, the greater injustice (like a cop killing a civilian) is followed by a lesser injustice (protesters holding up traffic).

Its very easy to create straw-men arguments and rip them to pieces, but the fact remains that police forces need to address their widespread problem of serving violence to the public for the most minimal of offenses, and then turn around and expect the public to carry on a calm, dignified manner.
 
#2,973
#2,973
Rasputin_Vol said:
Its very easy to create straw-men arguments and rip them to pieces, but the fact remains that police forces need to address their widespread problem of serving violence to the public for the most minimal of offenses, and then turn around and expect the public to carry on a calm, dignified manner.
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Not quite as widespread as you would lead others to believe...
 
#2,974
#2,974
Grand Vol said:
And this is why one cannot have a rational discussion with you in this thread. You go full retard eventually taking something out of context.

You want to know what the problem is and the one you are ignoring? The shooting happened on June 7th. These protests were the same damn night. This isn't a protest over a lack of indictment for the cop or a trial that doesn't go their way. This is pure rabble-rousing as I stated before. The body practically wasn't even cold by the time they hit the streets protesting for "justice." The investigation into the shooting hadn't even started and they are screaming for "justice."

These are Social Justice instigators that aren't concerned with anything justice related. Trouble makers, nothing more, nothing less.
Click to expand...

This is only one of but many cases. Lets not get sanctimonious and act as though we don't have a severe issue in this country with cops overstepping their bounds or escalating a situation.
 
#2,975
#2,975
Rasputin_Vol said:
This is only one of but many cases. Lets not get sanctimonious and act as though we don't have a severe issue in this country with cops overstepping their bounds or escalating a situation.
Click to expand...

Again, not quite as widespread as you would lead others to believe.
 
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