To Protect and to Serve II

#376
#376
hog88 said:
Without the acquiescence of the citizenship our corrupt political class wouldn't exist. The founding fathers gave us, the citizens the power to control our government, we pissed that power away!
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You can't blame the general public for a system that is broken. The founders did a great job creating the best system of governance in history, but Public Choice* theory shows that the system is set up to favor special interests.

SI group X has a strong incentive to lobby for $millions. It only costs me, as an individual taxpayer, say $5. So spending more than a few minutes fighting their bill is a waste of my time. We end up with thousands of special interests, pillaging you and me. We're not to blame for this.

The incentives are completely backwards, so we are doomed from the start.

*an economic theory largely developed by Nobel Laureate and Tennessee alumnus James Buchanan
 
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#377
#377
n_huffhines said:
No justice, no peace.

Every kid I know growing up played with bee bee guns. Hell, I even know a kid who was restrained because the cops thought his toy gun was real. He didn't get shot. Tamir Rice is dead because 2 cops made a huge ****ing error. At the very least, anybody careless enough to approach a kid (who supposedly has a gun) like this does not deserve to wear the badge.
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That's another reason this thing is so freaking crazy to me. I'm only 25 but when I was a kid, we had airsoft guns that looked pretty much just like the real thing. We played with them in the roads and yards of our neighborhood. We played with them at a park.. just like in this story. I don't think anyone ever worried about us getting blown away by overzealous cops back then, and like I said, this wasn't even THAT long ago.

Pure insanity. These overreactions are deadly.
 
#378
#378
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
So, you don't trust the people, yet, you acknowledge its people who control government. Good lord man.

Just keep voting, 230+ years now, you may get the right people in there one day lol
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I think the people let others dupe them into giving up control. No, voting isn't going to fix it, that ship has sailed. It will take a complete collapse and possible violent revolution for the citizens of this country to wrestle control back.

Any way you look at it, it's the voters (citizens) fault.
 
#379
#379
n_huffhines said:
You can't blame the general public for a system that is broken. The founders did a great job creating the best system of governance in history, but Public Choice* theory shows that the system is set up to favor special interests.

SI group X has a strong incentive to lobby for $millions. It only costs me, as an individual taxpayer, say $5. So spending more than a few minutes fighting their bill is a waste of my time. We end up with thousands of special interests, pillaging you and me. We're not to blame for this.

The incentives are completely backwards, so we are doomed from the start.

*an economic theory largely developed by Nobel Laureate and Tennessee alumnus James Buchanan
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The hell I can't, it was the people who ratified the 17th amendment which is mostly to blame for the entrenched Senators bought and paid for buy special interest money.
 
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#380
#380
n_huffhines said:
No justice, no peace.

Every kid I know growing up played with bee bee guns. Hell, I even know a kid who was restrained because the cops thought his toy gun was real. He didn't get shot. Tamir Rice is dead because 2 cops made a huge ****ing error. At the very least, anybody careless enough to approach a kid (who supposedly has a gun) like this does not deserve to wear the badge.
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Did your toy gun get disguised to look like a real one, did you pull it out and point it people, and did the police show up and you pull the gun out as they got out of the car?

If not, your analogy is simply not comparable.

I'm going to guess that your experience had NONE of these components.
 
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#381
#381
hog88 said:
I think the people let others dupe them into giving up control. No, voting isn't going to fix it, that ship has sailed. It will take a complete collapse and possible violent revolution for the citizens of this country to wrestle control back.

Any way you look at it, it's the voters (citizens) fault.
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I really hope it doesn't come to that. I may shock some by stating that the government is not our enemy. It's the belief in government (statism) that is our enemy. Once you strip away what the government truly is (force) the government really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Granted, it will take a critical mass level of non compliance to render the government impotent. I feel it's a worthy goal.


The problem with violent revolutions is you only end up under the thumb of the next ruler. I prefer a evolution of thought instead.

You cannot blame the citizens, who are threatened with robbery and violence at every turn for their non compliance to the edicts of the ruling class. That's where cops come into the fray, it's their job to enforce the edicts of their political masters. No matter if it conflicts with their own conscience or not. Their job is to uphold the law as interpreted by their political masters.
 
#382
#382
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I really hope it doesn't come to that. I may shock some by stating that the government is not our enemy. It's the belief in government (statism) that is our enemy. Once you strip away what the government truly is (force) the government really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Granted, it will take a critical mass level of non compliance to render the government impotent. I feel it's a worthy goal.
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Actually, I'd like to see some massive non-compliance with this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/05/u...-homeowners-to-raise-revenue.html?ref=us&_r=0

City?s ?nitpicky? fines for tree stumps, blinds trigger civil rights lawsuit | Fox News
 
#383
#383
lawgator1 said:
Did your toy gun get disguised to look like a real one, did you pull it out and point it people, and did the police show up and you pull the gun out as they got out of the car?

If not, your analogy is simply not comparable.

I'm going to guess that your experience had NONE of these components.
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The cops had knowledge of him pointing the gun at people? IIRC, the lady that placed the 911 call didn't make any such statement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

They rolled up on him like they wanted to get in a gun fight. That's what happened. There were other ways to approach this that would have been safer for everyone involved.
 
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#385
#385
hog88 said:
They are going to work on it with the township. We took the account from a local vendor who (surprise) never had an issue. They are also going to cover the attorney fees.
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That's a reasonable resolution
I'm sure it will get worked out
 
#386
#386
The father of the young Chicago man with mental health issues and banging a bat on a door at 4 am, shot and killed by police Saturday, filed suit on Monday.

Seriously, do people not explain to him how bad it looks for him to do that? How much it looks like he doesn't care about the actual facts?
 
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#387
#387
lawgator1 said:
The father of the young Chicago man with mental health issues and banging a bat on a door at 4 am, shot and killed by police Saturday, filed suit on Monday.

Seriously, do people not explain to him how bad it looks for him to do that? How much it looks like he doesn't care about the actual facts?
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I caught a whole lot of flak for this when it happened, but there was a case similar to what you just described in Detroit about 2 years ago where some drunk and high woman had crashed he car and was knocking on doors in the neighborhood at about this time of the morning. Now, at the time, I defended the homeowner because I felt that this guy had been awakened in the middle of deep sleep and is awaited at his front door by some drunk stranger with unknown intentions. That man shot the woman through the door and is in jail for a very long time.

Now my question is, how can a cop avoid jail in this case yet a civilian under pressure can't seem to do the same?
 
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#388
#388
Rasputin_Vol said:
I caught a whole lot of flak for this when it happened, but there was a case similar to what you just described in Detroit about 2 years ago where some drunk and high woman had crashed he car and was knocking on doors in the neighborhood at about this time of the morning. Now, at the time, I defended the homeowner because I felt that this guy had been awakened in the middle of deep sleep and is awaited at his front door by some drunk stranger with unknown intentions. That man shot the woman through the door and is in jail for a very long time.

Now my question is, how can a cop avoid jail in this case yet a civilian under pressure can't seem to do the same?
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I would need to know more about it. I have a vague recollection of something like that but just can't recall any details.

I will say that as a general rule police are afforded an immunity in many states where they are not required to avoid a use of force when they encounter resistance. Private citizens don't have the same level of immunity (though stand your ground laws are increasing it) for the simple reason that the police have a legal duty to confront possible crime whereas private citizens do not.
 
#389
#389
lawgator1 said:
I would need to know more about it. I have a vague recollection of something like that but just can't recall any details.

I will say that as a general rule police are afforded an immunity in many states where they are not required to avoid a use of force when they encounter resistance. Private citizens don't have the same level of immunity (though stand your ground laws are increasing it) for the simple reason that the police have a legal duty to confront possible crime whereas private citizens do not.
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Shooting of Renisha McBride - Wikipedia
 
#390
#390
Rasputin_Vol said:
I caught a whole lot of flak for this when it happened, but there was a case similar to what you just described in Detroit about 2 years ago where some drunk and high woman had crashed he car and was knocking on doors in the neighborhood at about this time of the morning. Now, at the time, I defended the homeowner because I felt that this guy had been awakened in the middle of deep sleep and is awaited at his front door by some drunk stranger with unknown intentions. That man shot the woman through the door and is in jail for a very long time.

Now my question is, how can a cop avoid jail in this case yet a civilian under pressure can't seem to do the same?
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Because he was a white man shooting a black woman in a liberal city. The govt will circle the wagons for its own, but the citizenry are left to fend for themselves. Kind of a human sacrifice to the altar of civil justice.

The common theme in these shootings is people committing crimes and someone calling the cops. If you don't want to get shot, don't trespass, don't hold people at gunpoint, don't get tweaked on meth and fight your family, etc. There are bad cops because there are bad people in all professions. So there are certainly exceptions. But it's not as if they're riding around executing people on the corners.
 
#391
#391
DancingOutlaw said:
Because he was a white man shooting a black woman in a liberal city. The govt will circle the wagons for its own, but the citizenry are left to fend for themselves. Kind of a human sacrifice to the altar of civil justice.

The common theme in these shootings is people committing crimes and someone calling the cops. If you don't want to get shot, don't trespass, don't hold people at gunpoint, don't get tweaked on meth and fight your family, etc. There are bad cops because there are bad people in all professions. So there are certainly exceptions. But it's not as if they're riding around executing people on the corners.
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Except that wasn't the case with Tamir Rice. He was playing on a playground...
 
#394
#394
Everybody needs to watch Making a Murderer on Netflix. It's a documentary series. It's so good. Even a skeptical anarchist like myself can't believe this level of corruption from the criminal justice system. Amazing case. Stranger than fiction.
 
#395
#395
n_huffhines said:
Everybody needs to watch Making a Murderer on Netflix. It's a documentary series. It's so good. Even a skeptical anarchist like myself can't believe this level of corruption from the criminal justice system. Amazing case. Stranger than fiction.
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I look forward to watching it but I hear that it is pretty slanted toward the guy's making the documentary point of view.
 
#396
#396
volbeast33 said:
I look forward to watching it but I hear that it is pretty slanted toward the guy's making the documentary point of view.
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Haha. I'm sure, but you have to watch it to understand that the most damning things (interviews, testimony, timelines, etc.) couldn't have been slanted. The investigation and prosecution is a damn circus.
 
#397
#397
n_huffhines said:
Haha. I'm sure, but you have to watch it to understand that the most damning things (interviews, testimony, timelines, etc.) couldn't have been slanted. The investigation and prosecution is a damn circus.
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I look forward to watching it....been putting in hardwood flooring so not much time right now....They claim some of the interviews and things that you mention have been edited also......I can definitely see the cops forcing a confession to get a conviction......From your point of view, do you think he committed the most recent murder he is in jail for?
 
#398
#398
n_huffhines said:
Everybody needs to watch Making a Murderer on Netflix. It's a documentary series. It's so good. Even a skeptical anarchist like myself can't believe this level of corruption from the criminal justice system. Amazing case. Stranger than fiction.
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Yeah but the guy did kill the photographer.


Oops spoiler alert!
 
#399
#399
volbeast33 said:
I look forward to watching it....been putting in hardwood flooring so not much time right now....They claim some of the interviews and things that you mention have been edited also......I can definitely see the cops forcing a confession to get a conviction.....spoiler
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You may want to put a spoiler tag on that. Lots of people go into this not knowing the result.

Even if you think no evidence was planted, the evidence that does exist isn't enough to convict, IMO.

The way the murder was to have been committed makes no sense. There is basically no blood anywhere in messy rooms in his house, when it should have been a blood bath. A forensics expert would have trouble cleaning the blood and this guy is a dope.

The prosecution's case does not add up. There is definitely evidence that makes Avery a legitimate suspect, but the prosecution wanted to convict him. They ignored other suspects. They lied about which officers were involved in the investigation. Officers involved in the investigation lied. Evidence was clearly tampered with. Witnesses were led. Forensic scientists were led. Etc.
 
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#400
#400
n_huffhines said:
Everybody needs to watch Making a Murderer on Netflix. It's a documentary series. It's so good. Even a skeptical anarchist like myself can't believe this level of corruption from the criminal justice system. Amazing case. Stranger than fiction.
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Absolutely agree.

Have a look at another short documentary on there called Frontline: death by fire. You think making a murderer is bad, this one is horrible.
 
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