The reality of our program

#26
#26
Good news is that if we play it smart we have 2 potential better outcomes than we’ve had in the last decade.

1) CJH is successful and we get back to winning at the highest level

2) We give him 5 years and it doesn’t work out and we let him go at the end of his contract and have no coaches on the payroll for the next search.
 
#27
#27
Just focusing on the positives here, but I have 3.

1) Special teams are rocking it.
2) We appear to come out with a good game plan at the start of the game and the team looks much better prepared than in last several seasons.
3) It appears that they come out after half time and good adjustments have been made on both the offensive and defensive sides of the ball and I can't remember that being the case for quite some time.
 
#28
#28
Jessie Rees foundation. It's for helping kids with cancer.
Not sure if I agree about expectations getting bigger... we fired a HoFer because the year after he went to the SEC title game cause he lost his seat at the top. Today, I am pretty sure most everyone would be good if you told us we're gonna win 8-9 games over the next 4 seasons with our recruiting and depth getting better each year. That'd still be a step below the 9-10 games a year we were at 13yrs ago.

I respectfully disagree with you.

We fired a HOF coach who had gotten lazy a few years too late after winning a National Championship.

Fulmer was not the reason we had a good team, it was Cutcliffe. Look at what happened to the team when he got the head job at Ols Miss.

The team went down and the got better when he came back and then went down again when he took the Duke job.

In my opinion the two pivotal things that have lead to where we are is that Fulmer did not retire and had over the job to Cutcliffe after the 98 season and then Kiffin bolting after one season.

If either of those things were different I think that we would be a far better place at this time.
 
#29
#29
If you can’t bring yourself to wear a Tennessee hat, you’re not a fan, you’re a front running loser. Most here will watch every game and hang on every play no matter how bad the team is. This makes the old generation (that always calls the young generation “soft” and “impatient”) sound like crybaby whiners.

LOL, cool story. A front running loser would switch fandom to a front running team. As a fan, it's Vol or nothing for me. If I buy a product which fails and isn't supported by the manufacturer, I stop buying from that manufacturer. UT has put out a failing product for much of the last 13 years. Since it's a product I don't have to have, I'll quit buying until they make an acceptable product again.

In my experience, losers keep buying junk. Enjoy your shopping.
 
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#30
#30
I've been a TN fan for all my life. Nearly 40 years now. I've seen the ups and I've seen the downs, and being that my family are season ticket holders, we've seen a lot of those ups and downs in person. I've also been a member of this board for 10 years now. Like most of you, I come here numerous times a day to see what's going on (Especially during coaching searches lol). One thing I've noticed about the fans is that throughout the years, the expectations have gotten bigger and the patience has gotten smaller. I absolutely want to win every game we play but some of y'all need to realize where this program is at. I know this is a world of instant gratification but its rare that a program has the massive turnaround that some of you want in the first year or two. You should definitely want to see steps in the right direction and I believe we've seen that so far, but expecting to beat a Florida team who is 29-9 in the past 3 seasons is a bit much. We're 16-19 over the same period, under an NCAA investigation, had 58+ transfer out vs Florida's 29 transfers, a completely new staff, a new AD, and most recruits are too young to even remember us being a good team.

I feel good about our staff and the leadership in place at UT now. I believe WITH TIME we will see a TN team that will win the SEC again. How that happens is by giving CJH and his staff time to recruit and develop a team that 100% fits their system. Calling for coaches to be fired after a few games in ridiculous and does nothing to help. Guys, we're on our 6th coach in 13 years. If we keep this up they'll create a coaches transfer portal because of us lol.

thank you for your absolute correct voice of reason
 
#31
#31
I respectfully disagree with you.

We fired a HOF coach who had gotten lazy a few years too late after winning a National Championship.

Fulmer was not the reason we had a good team, it was Cutcliffe. Look at what happened to the team when he got the head job at Ols Miss.

The team went down and the got better when he came back and then went down again when he took the Duke job.

In my opinion the two pivotal things that have lead to where we are is that Fulmer did not retire and had over the job to Cutcliffe after the 98 season and then Kiffin bolting after one season.

If either of those things were different I think that we would be a far better place at this time.

In retrospect, we probably should have just brought Cutcliffe back and let him bring his staff with him after Fulmer was let go.
 
#32
#32
If I'm around a television I'll watch, but I haven't even looked at time and channel. I'm not mad, and I'm not calling for the coach to be fired. I'm just tired of spending the only thing I truly own, my time, watching a mediocre to bad product and getting no excitement or joy from it. I've been invited to a few games this year with great seats, great accommodations and no cost other than gas and time. I won't be attending. Hopefully the coach can field a competitive team in a few years while I still care.

Vol football this year is NOT a “mediocre to bad product”. Best coached team since Kiffin. This staff started in a deep hole and is 100 making the most of what we’ve got. The guys play hard wire to wire. We’re scoring points. It’s a rebuilding year. The steep downhill slide is over.

I’ll take those tix off your hands.
 
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#33
#33
I've been a TN fan for all my life. Nearly 40 years now. I've seen the ups and I've seen the downs, and being that my family are season ticket holders, we've seen a lot of those ups and downs in person. I've also been a member of this board for 10 years now. Like most of you, I come here numerous times a day to see what's going on (Especially during coaching searches lol). One thing I've noticed about the fans is that throughout the years, the expectations have gotten bigger and the patience has gotten smaller.
Really? What expectation is "too big"? Are you saying we should be resigned to a program that hopes to make a bowl game but never seriously challenges to win the SEC?

I absolutely want to win every game we play but some of y'all need to realize where this program is at. I know this is a world of instant gratification but its rare that a program has the massive turnaround that some of you want in the first year or two.
Define "massive". It is reasonable to expect 6-8 wins with this roster against this schedule. Look at both the talent and the opponent... and then say why that's not true. Who has called for UT to win the East much less anything bigger this year or next? You're trying to build a straw man.

You should definitely want to see steps in the right direction and I believe we've seen that so far, but expecting to beat a Florida team who is 29-9 in the past 3 seasons is a bit much. We're 16-19 over the same period, under an NCAA investigation, had 58+ transfer out vs Florida's 29 transfers, a completely new staff, a new AD, and most recruits are too young to even remember us being a good team.
And? Two rosters will meet Saturday. The ONLY things that matter are who those players are and what the coaches do with the talent available to them. None of that other stuff matters anymore. It is past. UT added some players back. They have different coaches. The formula has additions... not just subtractions.

That does not mean we are "expecting" a win. There's a difference between having hope and discussing the reasons for hope versus "expecting" a win. Are you really trying to claim the moral high ground by having no hope of a win?

I feel good about our staff and the leadership in place at UT now. I believe WITH TIME we will see a TN team that will win the SEC again. How that happens is by giving CJH and his staff time to recruit and develop a team that 100% fits their system. Calling for coaches to be fired after a few games in ridiculous and does nothing to help. Guys, we're on our 6th coach in 13 years. If we keep this up they'll create a coaches transfer portal because of us lol.
So back to the beginning.... and "patience". Here's the reality you aren't dealing with. Coaches don't get "time" and not because we're a bunch of meanies. A new coach gets some early recruiting advantage because he's "shiny and new" and because he can promise playing time. That coach has no record and can promise... and usually convince... good players that good times are just around the corner. None of that plays with recruits by the end of year 3. Jones did better record wise than most and yet opposing recruiters successfully took players by pointing to his incompetence and poor showing in games like UF and OU.... He also took some blowout losses. No amount of his used car salesman antics could convince the best players that he was an elite coach able to win the SEC or even give them their best shot at the NFL.

To survive, a coach MUST do something that he can sell in the first 3 years. That's not because I say so or because I want it to be so. It is simply the universal reality across college football. If you cannot get better talent then you can't win or continue to improve. If you don't show you can win early then you won't get that talent.

It isn't fair at all but the timing and circumstances of Heupel's hiring put him behind on recruiting already. On the plus side, the portal gives him a new way to get the talent he needs.

It is a cruel, vicious cycle. But UK is current testimony to what you get when recruits consider your ceiling "middling". Stoops is a good coach. But recruits don't expect him to compete for championships. Players who want to win therefore... don't go to UK. Generally speaking... those are the best players who have the best options.
 
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#34
#34
I've been a TN fan for all my life. Nearly 40 years now. I've seen the ups and I've seen the downs, and being that my family are season ticket holders, we've seen a lot of those ups and downs in person. I've also been a member of this board for 10 years now. Like most of you, I come here numerous times a day to see what's going on (Especially during coaching searches lol). One thing I've noticed about the fans is that throughout the years, the expectations have gotten bigger and the patience has gotten smaller. I absolutely want to win every game we play but some of y'all need to realize where this program is at. I know this is a world of instant gratification but its rare that a program has the massive turnaround that some of you want in the first year or two. You should definitely want to see steps in the right direction and I believe we've seen that so far, but expecting to beat a Florida team who is 29-9 in the past 3 seasons is a bit much. We're 16-19 over the same period, under an NCAA investigation, had 58+ transfer out vs Florida's 29 transfers, a completely new staff, a new AD, and most recruits are too young to even remember us being a good team.

I feel good about our staff and the leadership in place at UT now. I believe WITH TIME we will see a TN team that will win the SEC again. How that happens is by giving CJH and his staff time to recruit and develop a team that 100% fits their system. Calling for coaches to be fired after a few games in ridiculous and does nothing to help. Guys, we're on our 6th coach in 13 years. If we keep this up they'll create a coaches transfer portal because of us lol.
Exact same threads were started about Pruitt, Butch, and Dooley more times that could be counted. Were they all wrong and NOW we have the guy despite the same evidence to the contrary or were any one of those guys going to make it if they just had more time?
 
#35
#35
Vol football this year is NOT a “mediocre to bad product”. Best coached team since Kiffin. This staff started in a deep hole and is 100 making the most of what we’ve got. The guys play hard wire to wire. We’re scoring points. It’s a rebuilding year. The steep downhill slide is over.

I’ll take those tix off your hands.

Not my tickets, or I'd happily give them to another fan. Obviously our opinion of the product is just that...opinion. I consider it mediocre to poor at this point, and the fact I'd consider six wins overachieving this year puts the team squarely in that category. I don't blame the current players and coaches for a second, and I truly hope this is the beginning of a positive turnaround.

Full disclosure, one of those games is Ole Miss, and my wife is an alumnus. We rarely even watch that game in the same room, so the thought of the seven hour drive home after the game is nauseating.
 
#36
#36
I like what Heupel has done so far. Both sides of the ball are playing better than they did last year. Clearly the lack of depth at certain positions is hindering us, mainly offensive line. I like what I've seen from the linebackers and defensive line. Getting way more TFLs than last year, more sacks as well, significantly better rush defense, linebackers are covering better overall. Secondary is better as well, but they still need to continue to get better, same with the pass rush.

Offensively, love the play calling most of the time (obviously one big exception). We consistently have wide receivers getting open, which is something that didn't happen last year. The rushing offense could use some work, but that's mostly on the offensive line and injuries at RB. We've almost scored as many points as we did last year (128 through 3 games vs 215 through 10 games). Obviously an easier schedule, but still.

I'm willing to give him plenty of time if he can continue to recruit well enough and keep the team consistently playing hard and not giving up like last year.
 
#37
#37
Exact same threads were started about Pruitt, Butch, and Dooley more times that could be counted. Were they all wrong and NOW we have the guy despite the same evidence to the contrary or were any one of those guys going to make it if they just had more time?
Dooley never really got anything figured out here. Butch was close, but his knowledge of the game was lacking, and the way he treated players and staff was lacking. Pruitt was even worse with the staff and players, and cheated to do it.

Heupel to me seems like a competent version of Butch. Butch had us to the closest thing to relevance in the last 14 years. Heupel has actually played at a high level and is a proven play caller on successful offenses, something that Butch never really did. Hopefully he can bring the energy to the program, and actually capitalize on it as well. I certainly have more faith than I did in the other ones.
 
#38
#38
I don't disagree with the OP concerning the need for patience and the necessity of stopping the revolving door of head coaches. However, I'm curious what it is that Heupel has done so far that makes anyone think he is the long-term answer? I'm not saying he isn't, but at this point I don't feel any differently about him that I did about Kiffin/Dooley/Butch/Pruitt 3 games into their first seasons.
I don't think that it is fair to try and make these sort of sweeping judgements after only 3 games. If Hooker starts this weekend in the Swamp it will be (at least for me) enough proof to already say he's a better coach than JP. Obviously, the bar is the floor, but we can only judge Heupel based on the circumstances he was given and what he'll do with him. I'm not expecting a win Saturday, but I want to see some compete and recognition that this is a special game.
 
#39
#39
I respectfully disagree with you.

We fired a HOF coach who had gotten lazy a few years too late after winning a National Championship.

Fulmer was not the reason we had a good team, it was Cutcliffe. Look at what happened to the team when he got the head job at Ols Miss.

The team went down and the got better when he came back and then went down again when he took the Duke job.

In my opinion the two pivotal things that have lead to where we are is that Fulmer did not retire and had over the job to Cutcliffe after the 98 season and then Kiffin bolting after one season.

If either of those things were different I think that we would be a far better place at this time.

Retire the year after he won a Natty while he was still the best recruiter in the business in his prime? That's an extreme to me and nobody is gonna do that.

I used to be an adamant Fulmer supporter. His tenure as AD and the idea that pound the rock was gonna work in the modern game was proof to me of his refusal to adapt.

I don't hate Fulmer like some, never will. That doesn't make sense to me. Did he get lazy on the trail in the end? Yes. More importantly did he refuse/fail to adapt as the game changed? Yes.

CPF had his strengths and weaknesses. Chavis was still an elite DC and proved to be for awhile more. Our defensive staff was great. Phil needed 2 things.
1. A stronger AD or some form of peer like he had in Dickey. Even MJ had a coach.
2. A great OC he could trust to hand-off the offense to like he did with Cut and the D with Chavis.

CPF was a CEO, program manager and elite recruiter when he wanted to be. If Hamilton had given hime a blank paycheck and said "go hire the best OC in America" we wouldn't be in this mess today. We had the no.3 class in America with Taj Boyd and Drew Petty coming as QB's. We were 2 classes away from being back to competing at a championship level.

To me, the fall was primarily due to Mike Hamilton.
1. He undermined Fulmer and was cheap.
2. He was weak and gave up power to the academic side and booster. Look what that has done.
3. He could have had any coach in America almost and he chose a 31yr old Kiffin.
4. Kiffin bolting and then Hamilton and the boosters panicked into the Dooley hire. At this point you've burned every bridge in America because the coaching fraternity felt Phil was disrespected and you've proven to be an inept administration.

But history doesn't matter. Is what it is. Today, we still have a program that could compete with anyone. There are more haves now due to TV $$ but programs like TN still have the intangibles others do not. But our current administration is still focused on the wrong things and they will sacrifice any and everything that has made TN what it is inorder to monetize it.
 
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#40
#40
Dooley never really got anything figured out here. Butch was close, but his knowledge of the game was lacking, and the way he treated players and staff was lacking. Pruitt was even worse with the staff and players, and cheated to do it.

Heupel to me seems like a competent version of Butch. Butch had us to the closest thing to relevance in the last 14 years. Heupel has actually played at a high level and is a proven play caller on successful offenses, something that Butch never really did. Hopefully he can bring the energy to the program, and actually capitalize on it as well. I certainly have more faith than I did in the other ones.
So those guys were all wrong despite the majority of VN pumpers saying they just needed more time, chance to get "THEIR" players in the system, etc, etc....BUT this guy is the ONE? 3 years HC at an AAC where he got progressively worse every year, losing winnable games to mediocre competition, showing no ability to recruit with elite programs, but MORE time is going to do it?? There are worse things than firing and hiring a new coach to a programs...leaving a bad coach that is in over his head is even worse. Heupel will get his 3 years to prove himself, but I think we all know where this is headed. If a head coach can't show significant improvement in 3 years, then they don't need to be the head coach.
 
#41
#41
Running coaches off in 2-3 years does nothing except make a good coach not want to come here. We have what we have, we can either lose with CJH now and give him time to build his team or we can panic and fire him as soon as he has a bad season or two and start the cycle of losing all over again. These coaching searches are humiliating and frustrating. Saban ruined coaching in the SEC by having success from day one, now no one wants to have patients. CJH needs at least 4 years to get his players in here and to get the team to buy into his culture and system. He is playing with the last 2 coaches players right now and the guys are competing their tails off. It is a process and I love the effort these young guys s far.
I agree but good coaches have way more success earlier than the coaches Tennessee has hired.
 
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#42
#42
This is the fanbase in 2020(2019 season). Not sure which coach the OP thinks we should have had more patience with. No reason to settle for mediocrity that none of us caused. There has been no explanation from anyone in charge that suggest anything will get better with patience.
View attachment 395827
View attachment 395828
FYI This is from the Dobbs 2015 Gator Bowl not the Indiana Gator Bowl
 
#43
#43
So those guys were all wrong despite the majority of VN pumpers saying they just needed more time, chance to get "THEIR" players in the system, etc, etc....BUT this guy is the ONE? 3 years HC at an AAC where he got progressively worse every year, losing winnable games to mediocre competition, showing no ability to recruit with elite programs, but MORE time is going to do it?? There are worse things than firing and hiring a new coach to a programs...leaving a bad coach that is in over his head is even worse. Heupel will get his 3 years to prove himself, but I think we all know where this is headed. If a head coach can't show significant improvement in 3 years, then they don't need to be the head coach.
Well that depends, if we get screwed by the investigation, which I don't expect to happen, then he's probably getting more than that. I also mentioned recruiting, if he doesn't recruit well then it doesn't really matter. The firing of coaches strategy has worked really well. Butch didn't leave the program in great shape, but Pruitt made it far worse. Dooley left it far worse than than he found it. Butch I guess left it maybe slightly better, or at least about the same.

The difference between him and butch is I believe Heupel can coach and understands the game. Butch was just a cheerleader. Now is he a great coach? I guess we'll find out, I'm going to give him more than 3 games in a year where we have 14 less scholarship players than pretty much everyone else. I more interested to see how he does against Missouri, Kentucky, USCe, and Vandy.
 
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#44
#44
Retire the year after he won a Natty while he was still the best recruiter in the business in his prime? That's an extreme to me and nobody is gonna do that.

I used to be an adamant Fulmer supporter. His tenure as AD and the idea that pound the rock was gonna work in the modern game was proof to me of his refusal to adapt.

I don't hate Fulmer like some, never will. That doesn't make sense to me. Did he get lazy on the trail in the end? Yes. More importantly did he refuse/fail to adapt as the game changed? Yes.

CPF had his strengths and weaknesses. Chavis was still an elite DC and proved to be for awhile more. Our defensive staff was great. Phil needed 2 things.
1. A stronger AD or some form of peer like he had in Dickey. Even MJ had a coach.
2. A great OC he could trust to hand-off the offense to like he did with Cut and the D with Chavis.

CPF was a CEO, program manager and elite recruiter when he wanted to be. If Hamilton had given hime a blank paycheck and said "go hire the best OC in America" we wouldn't be in this mess today. We had the no.3 class in America with Taj Boyd and Drew Petty coming as QB's. We were 2 classes away from being back to competing at a championship level.

To me, the fall was primarily due to Mike Hamilton.
1. He undermined Fulmer and was cheap.
2. He was weak and gave up power to the academic side and booster. Look what that has done.
3. He could have had any coach in America almost and he chose a 31yr old Kiffin.
4. Kiffin bolting and then Hamilton and the boosters panicked into the Dooley hire. At this point you've burned every bridge in America because the coaching fraternity felt Phil was disrespected and you've proven to be an inept administration.

But history doesn't matter. Is what it is. Today, we still have a program that could compete with anyone. There are more haves now due to TV $$ but programs like TN still have the intangibles others do not. But our current administration is still focused on the wrong things and they will sacrifice any and everything that has made TN what it is inorder to monetize it.

Sorry I don’t agree with your interpretation on a number of points. But it’s 2021 / 22. Water way under the bridge atp.
 
#45
#45
There's a difference between giving someone time to rebuild the talent level and time to prove they can coach.

At this point, there is no use judging HCJH or the staff, because the overall talent level is not there. (At least, that's what many on this board are saying.)

So, for this year, the only thing — if anything — that it is fair to judge Heupel et al on is whether there is improvement from week to week on the things they can improve via coaching. The question for this year, and probably next, is simply "Does it look like they know how to coach?" That includes coaching up the skills, game planning, and leadership/culture. If those three items look good, then that's a good grade for this year and next. So, they get the time they have earned.

Over time, you can also assess whether they can recruit effectively, and whether their recruiting combined with their coaching abilities (skills, game planning, leadership/culture) are improving the overall program. If all of that checks out, then you keep going with them.

Some day I may take the time to build out the "coach grading rubric" that I have in my head. But even if/when I do, one of the grades for each part of the rubric will be "too soon to tell." At this point in Year One, I'd say most of that imaginary rubric would be filled in with "too soon to tell."
 
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#46
#46
We have many excuses to not be at the level we want. But i wanna see progress in developing and maybe in game out coach or out play a team or 2 we shouldnt win on paper. We have to have some type of spring board defining moment. Its gonna take a few years but its gonna take a certain moment to get it going
 
#47
#47
This is the fanbase in 2020(2019 season). Not sure which coach the OP thinks we should have had more patience with. No reason to settle for mediocrity that none of us caused. There has been no explanation from anyone in charge that suggest anything will get better with patience.
View attachment 395827
View attachment 395828
Ok but you guarantee nothing gets better firing a coach every year either. That’s where at least at some patience has to come into play.
 
#48
#48
I've been a TN fan for all my life. Nearly 40 years now. I've seen the ups and I've seen the downs, and being that my family are season ticket holders, we've seen a lot of those ups and downs in person. I've also been a member of this board for 10 years now. Like most of you, I come here numerous times a day to see what's going on (Especially during coaching searches lol). One thing I've noticed about the fans is that throughout the years, the expectations have gotten bigger and the patience has gotten smaller. I absolutely want to win every game we play but some of y'all need to realize where this program is at. I know this is a world of instant gratification but its rare that a program has the massive turnaround that some of you want in the first year or two. You should definitely want to see steps in the right direction and I believe we've seen that so far, but expecting to beat a Florida team who is 29-9 in the past 3 seasons is a bit much. We're 16-19 over the same period, under an NCAA investigation, had 58+ transfer out vs Florida's 29 transfers, a completely new staff, a new AD, and most recruits are too young to even remember us being a good team.

I feel good about our staff and the leadership in place at UT now. I believe WITH TIME we will see a TN team that will win the SEC again. How that happens is by giving CJH and his staff time to recruit and develop a team that 100% fits their system. Calling for coaches to be fired after a few games in ridiculous and does nothing to help. Guys, we're on our 6th coach in 13 years. If we keep this up they'll create a coaches transfer portal because of us lol.

I agree OP.

Then I think about that guy from Cincinnati that we gave five years (which, after the third year most of us knew) to only to realize we wasted that time!
 
#49
#49
Just another " We need patience with Coach ______ thread" thats playing out for the 4th coach now.

There isn't a single person here who has the ability to run these coaches off. It is above our pay grades.

And frankly they have been doing a good job of it themselves.

Should the powers that be kept Dooley after basically abandoning recruiting his final year and putting a historically bad defense on the field?

Should the powers that be been patient with Jones after a winless SEC schedule?

Maybe they should have been more patient with Pruitt through the NCAA allegations and nearly unwatchable mess he put on the field.

Relax.

Heupel will get his shot to turn the program around no matter how much complaining takes place on message boards.
 
#50
#50
Coaches should be given a minimum 3 years to show progress and up to 5 years to show they are contending for the conference. After 5 years, if you are not at least contending for the conference championship then you probably need to start looking elsewhere.
 

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