The private vs. public education debate (split from QB thread)

#126
#126
WPAINE said:
The Divinity School is certainly different than the other Grad Schools.. It is mixed between people pursuing academic stuff or clergy related work. Also, there are a number of students who are pursuing a second career that choose to go the Divinity School Route (since you can apply religion to just about everything).. Granted, at the law school, business school, etc you have your pompous @$$holes but for the most part you just have a lot of really overachievers....

Also, I kind of acquiesced and accepted the stereotype that many people have of Harvard. But in reality, it is incredibly diverse on many levels. In fact, they have a program where if your parents make less than $60,000 a year combined then you get free tuition, free housing, and I believe even a stipend.

so comparing Harvard with private high schools isn't really accurate. If I'm not mistaken, private high schools aren't offering any type of help to lower income families so that their kids can attend their school. Instead, more often than not, it is wealthy, suburban, white kids... and with that breeds a type of elitism.. That doesn't necesarilly mean that one thinks they are better than someone else, but might be as small as thinking that their education is better than someone else's... Which is what PeayGolf is saying without realizing that his argument is elitist haha.... If you presume that your education is better than someone else's then you have done so by putting forth your own definition of education... But to many people, knowing how to change a flat tire is just as important as reading Hemingway...

My point was that I went to a public school and was still able to attend a university that is PERCEIVED to be one of the better one's in the U.S. (although, like I already mention, it depends on how you define education... for instance, most people up here don't know the first damn thing to do if they have a flat tire, etc), which makes the whole notion that private schools offer a better education than public schools pretty void in my opinion....
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I have a little experience with one of the programs there, and in that experience, there was a tremendous group of elitist types.
 
#127
#127
allvol123 said:
So why did you choose to go to Harvard if you don't feel it offers you a better education. The cheap tuition?
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Actually, yeah. haha. Obviously the tuition isn't cheap but Harvard has more money than most small countries so their financial aid is pretty good... Also, I chose to go to Harvard for 4 reasons: 1) not many state schools have a Divinity/Theology department. And those that do are mostly Seminaries that have a religious affiliation. In fact, only Harvard, Vanderbilt, and one other Divinity School in the U.S. is ecumenical.. 2) Because Harvard brings in some really big-time professors and are obviously at the cutting edge of some really cool stuff, 3) Because I'm a Red Sox fan, haha, and


4) this is the biggie, because Harvard is PERCEIVED to be "better" than most other schools in the U.S. and lets face it, when it comes to getting a job and stuff perception means a lot.. Yet that does not mean that my education ACTUALLY IS better because I went to Harvard as opposed to some other school.. That is what is frustrating with this debate... Sure, Private Schools are PERCEIVED to offer a better education, etc and therefore their students probably are given higher priority when it comes to schools, etc (putting aside affirmative action and stuff) but that CERTAINLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION IS BETTER... That is where PeayGolf is wrong, in my opinion... Because he has fallen into the mindset (call it elitist or not) that private school education actually is better... when I don't think it is, even if the perception is that it is...
 
#128
#128
BigPapaVol said:
I have a little experience with one of the programs there, and in that experience, there was a tremendous group of elitist types.
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I bet that the situation is very different between the various graduate schools..or even departments. I would bet that a good fraction of their science-based graduate programs do not suffer from as many elitism problems as, oh, say the business school. You do have problems with people believing they know everything..and you have to learn how to communicate with those types - but it comes off differently than elitist to me. In my program, which is engineering graduate school, I find that most of those people are knocked down to a tolerable level within our first year...which is nice. I already knew that I had a whole lot of stupid to go with my smart..so while I was knocked down a lot...I didn't have as far to fall as others :).

I will also say that the undergraduate vs. graduate dynamics are VERY different....
 
#129
#129
WPAINE said:
Actually, yeah. haha. Obviously the tuition isn't cheap but Harvard has more money than most small countries so their financial aid is pretty good... Also, I chose to go to Harvard for 4 reasons: 1) not many state schools have a Divinity/Theology department. And those that do are mostly Seminaries that have a religious affiliation. In fact, only Harvard, Vanderbilt, and one other Divinity School in the U.S. is ecumenical.. 2) Because Harvard brings in some really big-time professors and are obviously at the cutting edge of some really cool stuff, 3) Because I'm a Red Sox fan, haha, and


4) this is the biggie, because Harvard is PERCEIVED to be "better" than most other schools in the U.S. and lets face it, when it comes to getting a job and stuff perception means a lot.. Yet that does not mean that my education ACTUALLY IS better because I went to Harvard as opposed to some other school.. That is what is frustrating with this debate... Sure, Private Schools are PERCEIVED to offer a better education, etc and therefore their students probably are given higher priority when it comes to schools, etc (putting aside affirmative action and stuff) but that CERTAINLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION IS BETTER... That is where PeayGolf is wrong, in my opinion... Because he has fallen into the mindset (call it elitist or not) that private school education actually is better... when I don't think it is, even if the perception is that it is...
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in my experience, the education was very similar to that of other similar schools, but the quality of the student in the classrooms aided education and the rest is all about the network, recruiters and schmoozing.
 
#130
#130
WPAINE said:
Actually, yeah. haha. Obviously the tuition isn't cheap but Harvard has more money than most small countries so their financial aid is pretty good... Also, I chose to go to Harvard for 4 reasons: 1) not many state schools have a Divinity/Theology department. And those that do are mostly Seminaries that have a religious affiliation. In fact, only Harvard, Vanderbilt, and one other Divinity School in the U.S. is ecumenical.. 2) Because Harvard brings in some really big-time professors and are obviously at the cutting edge of some really cool stuff, 3) Because I'm a Red Sox fan, haha, and


4) this is the biggie, because Harvard is PERCEIVED to be "better" than most other schools in the U.S. and lets face it, when it comes to getting a job and stuff perception means a lot.. Yet that does not mean that my education ACTUALLY IS better because I went to Harvard as opposed to some other school.. That is what is frustrating with this debate... Sure, Private Schools are PERCEIVED to offer a better education, etc and therefore their students probably are given higher priority when it comes to schools, etc (putting aside affirmative action and stuff) but that CERTAINLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION IS BETTER... That is where PeayGolf is wrong, in my opinion... Because he has fallen into the mindset (call it elitist or not) that private school education actually is better... when I don't think it is, even if the perception is that it is...
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Wpaine, no one is sayng every private school is better.

For what Harvard charges they better be offering a better education. That is, professors with greater experience and knowledge. Access to cutting edge technologies, theories, etc...what have you. That is the point I would think. This idea that everything is equal is utter nonsense.
 
#131
#131
BigPapaVol said:
in my experience, the education was very similar to that of other similar schools, but the quality of the student in the classrooms aided education and the rest is all about the network, recruiters and schmoozing.
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That is a valid point. By stricter selection, the schools are already setting themselves on higher ground.
 
#132
#132
WPAINE said:
4) this is the biggie, because Harvard is PERCEIVED to be "better" than most other schools in the U.S. and lets face it, when it comes to getting a job and stuff perception means a lot.. Yet that does not mean that my education ACTUALLY IS better because I went to Harvard as opposed to some other school.. That is what is frustrating with this debate... Sure, Private Schools are PERCEIVED to offer a better education, etc and therefore their students probably are given higher priority when it comes to schools, etc (putting aside affirmative action and stuff) but that CERTAINLY DOES NOT MEAN THAT A PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION IS BETTER... That is where PeayGolf is wrong, in my opinion... Because he has fallen into the mindset (call it elitist or not) that private school education actually is better... when I don't think it is, even if the perception is that it is...
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I agree a lot with these sentiments.

What is sad is that the one thing that might make the "education" actually better could very well be related to the elitist atmosphere....and that would be the connections you make...and the in-network way in which so many do business. I don't mean to say this is exactly elitist, because it isn't...but keeping things in the family, if you will, seems to suggest a superiority of that family....though a lot of it has to do with familiarity and camaraderie.
 
#133
#133
TennTradition said:
I bet that the situation is very different between the various graduate schools..or even departments. I would bet that a good fraction of their science-based graduate programs do not suffer from as many elitism problems as, oh, say the business school. You do have problems with people believing they know everything..and you have to learn how to communicate with those types - but it comes off differently than elitist to me. In my program, which is engineering graduate school, I find that most of those people are knocked down to a tolerable level within our first year...which is nice. I already knew that I had a whole lot of stupid to go with my smart..so while I was knocked down a lot...I didn't have as far to fall as others :).

I will also say that the undergraduate vs. graduate dynamics are VERY different....
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I will agree that the dynamics are very different at the graduate level. The elitism was there, but with a lot of exceptional students around, it was generally kept in check, lest someone get smoked by a less elite yet smarter peer.
 
#134
#134
BigPapaVol said:
in my experience, the education was very similar to that of other similar schools, but the quality of the student in the classrooms aided education and the rest is all about the network, recruiters and schmoozing.
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I know that I am aided more every day by the quality of the students around me than the quality of the professors around me....
 
#136
#136
WPAINE said:
so comparing Harvard with private high schools isn't really accurate. If I'm not mistaken, private high schools aren't offering any type of help to lower income families so that their kids can attend their school. Instead, more often than not, it is wealthy, suburban, white kids... and with that breeds a type of elitism.. That doesn't necesarilly mean that one thinks they are better than someone else, but might be as small as thinking that their education is better than someone else's... Which is what PeayGolf is saying without realizing that his argument is elitist haha.... If you presume that your education is better than someone else's then you have done so by putting forth your own definition of education... But to many people, knowing how to change a flat tire is just as important as reading Hemingway....
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All the private schools I've looked into offer tuition assistance and scholarships for qualified applicants.

I'm pretty sure Michael Oher didn't pay for his education.
 
#137
#137
UT IE 95 said:
All the private schools I've looked into offer tuition assistance and scholarships for qualified applicants.

I'm pretty sure Michael Oher didn't pay for his education.
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Definitely. My wife went to a very nice, all-girls private school in Cincinnati on a scholarship.

A difference between the graduate school experience for me is that no one in my department is paying for it...and we're all getting a stipend. This really helps give a wide-ranging group of people to the education they have to offer - which is nice.
 
#139
#139
TennTradition said:
Definitely. A difference between the graduate school experience for me is that no one in my department is paying for it...and we're all getting a stipend. This really helps give a wide-ranging group of people to the education they have to offer - which is nice.
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Elitist snob. :p
 
#141
#141
TennTradition said:
Definitely. A difference between the graduate school experience for me is that no one in my department is paying for it...and we're all getting a stipend. This really helps give a wide-ranging group of people to the education they have to offer - which is nice.
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and in mine, everyone was leveraging their future based upon the average outbound salary of the previous class.
 
#142
#142
BigPapaVol said:
They use several criteria in determining a particular candidate's fit at the school, but the number one criteria the headmaster uses in admitting students is the actual involvement of the father. Mothers are always involved, but the involved father is the guy they're after. He says it makes all the difference in the contribution that a student and his family will make to the learning environment and school as a whole.
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That is a kick ass concept.
 
#145
#145
BigPapaVol said:
and in mine, everyone was leveraging their future based upon the average outbound salary of the previous class.
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It always cracks me up to look at the step function that exists between salaries for out-bound graduates from my department. There is a huge jump between those taking traditional engineering jobs and those going financial/consulting. I guess that explains why over 1/2 seem to go financial/consulting! :)

There is no doubt that it is worthwhile to take into consideration future earnings potential when considering where to go and how much to pay.
 
#146
#146
volsforever27 said:
Elitist snob. :p
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I know you're just joking...I think :)...I consider it a small mission of mine to remind people of the potential of folks from all parts of the country and all walks of life. The funny part is we're here having this public vs. private debate...but I have to believe that the most key element is having an active, involved, and caring family. My parents didn't know anything about college because they didn't go, but they supported me every step of the way...and believed in me all the way. I don't think that my dad valued school all that much when he was in it - and he was a football player...but when I ended up being horrible at sports but good at school, I've never had a bigger supporter. My education has always had a lot more to do with what I thought I could accomplish/learn (supported by my family) than what my teachers/professors tried to teach me, IMO.
 
#150
#150
I've read most of the posts, and always find this argument to be compelling. For me, I will do everything in my power to send my children to private school for one simple reason, and I don't know that the reason applies nationally, but it is certainly true in KY.

Everything from content to teaching methods in the KY public schools is nothing more than preparation for standardized testing.

I do realize the value of public education. I am afraid that the NEA in tandem with the government has dumbed down its efficacy and potential. Without major reform it is not going to get any better. It is not about the exceptionally bright or motivated student. It is about the average student that needs to learn how to learn. Practicing for standardized tests simply doesn't cut it in that situation.
 
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