The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#833
#833
If Lebron wins one more title, it's inevitable that he will be the GOAT. The older generation will fade out and in 15-20 years, everybody is going to look at 5 titles, 11+ conference titles, the points record, twice as many rebounds and assists as MJ, all in a more modern era and they're going to wonder why the hell this was even a debate. We'll say you had to be there. They're going to say 11 conference championships is better than 6, and we're not going to have a coherent response to that unless it's "you're right" but we're not going to say that. We're just going to repeat "6-0" like it's "rosebud" falling off our dying lips.
 
#834
#834
n_huffhines said:
If Lebron wins one more title, it's inevitable that he will be the GOAT. The older generation will fade out and in 15-20 years, everybody is going to look at 5 titles, 11+ conference titles, the points record, twice as many rebounds and assists as MJ, all in a more modern era and they're going to wonder why the hell this was even a debate. We'll say you had to be there. They're going to say 11 conference championships is better than 6, and we're not going to have a coherent response to that unless it's "you're right" but we're not going to say that. We're just going to repeat "6-0" like it's "rosebud" falling off our dying lips.
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They are going to look at 6-0 vs whoever the current star is they use for ratings in a false goat convo. It was Kobe when he played. Now it's Lebron. Then when Lebron retires he will be looked at like Kobe or Magic while MJ will still be the goat.

Also all of the advanced stats MJ dominates in and accolades. If Lebron keeps playing his averages will go down.

A title or two as a two or three option is not going to move the needle.
 
#835
#835
n_huffhines said:
If Lebron wins one more title, it's inevitable that he will be the GOAT. The older generation will fade out and in 15-20 years, everybody is going to look at 5 titles, 11+ conference titles, the points record, twice as many rebounds and assists as MJ, all in a more modern era and they're going to wonder why the hell this was even a debate. We'll say you had to be there. They're going to say 11 conference championships is better than 6, and we're not going to have a coherent response to that unless it's "you're right" but we're not going to say that. We're just going to repeat "6-0" like it's "rosebud" falling off our dying lips.
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Every GOAT dies this death. Including James one day.
 
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#836
#836
BigBossVol said:
They are going to look at 6-0 vs whoever the current star is they use for ratings in a false goat convo. It was Kobe when he played. Now it's Lebron. Then when Lebron retires he will be looked at like Kobe or Magic while MJ will still be the goat.

Also all of the advanced stats MJ dominates in and accolades. If Lebron keeps playing his averages will go down.

A title or two as a two or three option is not going to move the needle.
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Nobody seriously debated Kobe vs. MJ in any meaningful way. He was Robin in 3 of his 5 titles and he was doing an MJ impression and clearly wasn't as good as him based on the stats and the results. It's easy to compare them and know who the man is.

Lebron vs. MJ is an actual conversation because his resume is pretty different and the fact that he's a different player.
 
#837
#837
n_huffhines said:
Nobody seriously debated Kobe vs. MJ in any meaningful way. He was Robin in 3 of his 5 titles and he was doing an MJ impression and clearly wasn't as good as him based on the stats and the results. It's easy to compare them and know who the man is.

Lebron vs. MJ is an actual conversation because his resume is pretty different and the fact that he's a different player.
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Same exact arguments except Kobe was a better winner.

He has still not caught Magic either leaving out big men.

LBJ was Robin last year. He was was saved by refs and role players all other chips.

Many people have him top ten. When he retires, especially after his stats drop, most will move him into a realistic spot like Kobe. They are on the same tier. None are on the MJ tier.
 
#838
#838
BigBossVol said:
Same exact arguments except Kobe was a better winner.

He has still not caught Magic either leaving out big men.

LBJ was Robin last year. He was was saved by refs and role players all other chips.

Many people have him top ten. When he retires, especially after his stats drop, most will move him into a realistic spot like Kobe. They are on the same tier. None are on the MJ tier.
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Kobe was a better winner than who? Lebron is going to have more regular-season wins, more playoff wins, more conference titles, and yeah he has one fewer title but twice as many finals MVP's.

Anybody who thinks LBJ was Robin last year is either blinded by bias or doesn't know basketball. Where did AD finish in MVP voting? Where did he finish in finals MVP voting? Yeah, AD was the workhorse but Lebron was running the show.
 
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#840
#840
What are we supposed to draw from that? LeBron lost with good and "not as good" teammates? MJ's last 3 titles were on extremely good teams; his 1st 3 titles were meh?
 
#841
#841
95 Vol Alum said:
What are we supposed to draw from that? LeBron lost with good and "not as good" teammates? MJ's last 3 titles were on extremely good teams; his 1st 3 titles were meh?
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TIFWIW. "I lay it out for y'all to play it out"

I just thought it was interesting. I think it generally tells the truth about those title teams but it's also problematic in some instances.

For example, this makes it look like Shaq had an awesome team and Hakeem was carrying his team and the takeaway would be Hakeem conquered Shaq despite having an inferior team, but the truth is in the finals Hakeem didn't shoot the ball that well while Elie, Cassell, Jones, Drexler, and Horry all shot the lights out.

So context helps.
 
#842
#842
Another thought is it doesn't capture how weak/strong the conferences are. MJ's supporting cast in the first 3peat looks inferior to the 2nd 3peat, but those teammate stats might be just be the result of a difference in competition and the eastern conference was collectively tougher in the early 90's.

A random thought...the '99 Spurs went 15-2 in the playoffs. That's crazy to think about...aging Admiral + 2nd year Tim Duncan and no Giniboli or Parker was able to plow through the playoffs.
 
#844
#844
Rarely do players do that for 48 minutes. Not to diminish their conditioning, but it is just different from the past.

No issues with the message, though. Game has evolved. Players have evolved.
 
#845
#845
95 Vol Alum said:
Rarely do players do that for 48 minutes. Not to diminish their conditioning, but it is just different from the past.

No issues with the message, though. Game has evolved. Players have evolved.
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I don't think he was saying one player does it for 48 minutes, he's saying the pace of an entire game can be like that 48 minutes. When Garnett was still playing good basketball you had this element going on because teams had small ball lineups they'd run out, but it wasn't going on for 48 minutes.
 
#846
#846
n_huffhines said:
I don't think he was saying one player does it for 48 minutes, he's saying the pace of an entire game can be like that 48 minutes. When Garnett was still playing good basketball you had this element going on because teams had small ball lineups they'd run out, but it wasn't going on for 48 minutes.
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I guess I got confused by the you go do this, then you do that. Then take that exhaustion and think about it over 48 minutes. Maybe it was clearer when you hear it.

He also suggests the game isn’t as physical to me. Which I thought you disagreed with.
 
#847
#847
95 Vol Alum said:
I guess I got confused by the you go do this, then you do that. Then take that exhaustion and think about it over 48 minutes. Maybe it was clearer when you hear it.

He also suggests the game isn’t as physical to me. Which I thought you disagreed with.
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I would agree that on the net, it's not as physical with the largest factor being less action in the paint. My position is that the guards are typically bigger. Bigs are typically smaller and more athletic but are either less skilled or specifically less skilled in the post. The differences in physicality are greatly exaggerated, IMO. People talk like you used to get murdered every night, but much like today, dirty fouls that could actually hurt someone didn't happen that often.

Also, the changes in physicality cut both ways. What's more physical? A 6' 2" SG who can hang defensively because he's hand checking you or a 6' 6" guard who uses better footwork and his body and length to check you? Iverson would have an easier time slashing today but he'd also get picked on way more because he doesn't have the physicality to defend all the big athletic ballhandlers in this wide-open setting.
 
#848
#848
148600968_10220985741246927_1402728358532491508_n.jpg
 
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#850
#850
n_huffhines said:
This is so dumb as an argument but it made me chuckle

151915528_188373633034220_3309829038360109580_o.jpg
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Jordan isn't the legend he is without Pippen. Maybe he eventually wins 1 or 2 championships without him, but he wouldn't be lionized the way he is today if not for Scottie doing the dirty work which those stats perfectly illustrate.
 
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