The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#776
#776
95 Vol Alum said:
I love MJ. Will always be the GOAT to me, but I grew up on the Bulls so am extremely biased. LeBron is great, though. His longevity playing at a high level will likely be difficult to surpass.
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He started 3 years before MJ and then MJ retired two different times and lost almost 3 complete seasons. When Lebron’s career is finished he is going to have about 5 or 6 extra seasons.
 
#778
#778
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
You must not have watched him in his prime.
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I did. I've also more recently seen the highlights. I don't think his speed jumps out at you like the guys I mentioned. Clearly he has great speed, but there is great speed and then there are outliers.
 
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#779
#779
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
He started 3 years before MJ and then MJ retired two different times and lost almost 3 complete seasons. When Lebron’s career is finished he is going to have about 5 or 6 extra seasons.
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2 years before MJ, and he only had one significant injury that only kept him out 27 games, and then no breaks. The breaks do not work in Jordan's favor.

Lebron played deep into the playoffs many times, including 9 finals in 10 years. He didn't quit because he wanted to play NFL (something he would definitely succeed at). He didn't quit because he couldn't handle another season of media scrutiny, late night card games, daytime golf, and evening hoops. Lebron's putting $1m into his body every year so that he can play as long as possible. Part of Lebron’s greatness is his dedication to the game. MJ gave a lot to the game but he's nowhere near Lebron's level of dedication.

It's not a knock on MJ that he had other interests. I'm just pointing out how Lebron is on another level, in this regard.
 
#780
#780
n_huffhines said:
2 years before MJ, and he only had one significant injury that only kept him out 27 games, and then no breaks. The breaks do not work in Jordan's favor.

Lebron played deep into the playoffs many times, including 9 finals in 10 years. He didn't quit because he wanted to play NFL (something he would definitely succeed at). He didn't quit because he couldn't handle another season of media scrutiny, late night card games, daytime golf, and evening hoops. Lebron's putting $1m into his body every year so that he can play as long as possible. Part of Lebron’s greatness is his dedication to the game. MJ gave a lot to the game but he's nowhere near Lebron's level of dedication.

It's not a knock on MJ that he had other interests. I'm just pointing out how Lebron is on another level, in this regard.
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LOL-Nobody was determined and focused as Jordan. Jordan’s first retirement and subsequent baseball experiment was heavily influenced by his fathers murder. Jordan was the most intimating mentally focused player in history. He would invent things in his mind about players or teams so he could play with a chip on his shoulder. Lebron is every much the best physical specimen to play the game. Lebron is a child when you compare him to Jordan’s mental toughness. That is what makes Jordan the GOAT. The only other player who could be considered GOAT is Kareem.
 
#781
#781
n_huffhines said:
I did. I've also more recently seen the highlights. I don't think his speed jumps out at you like the guys I mentioned. Clearly he has great speed, but there is great speed and then there are outliers.
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How old are you , seriously. Did you watch Jordan in his prime as it happened?
 
#782
#782
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
LOL-Nobody was determined and focused as Jordan. Jordan’s first retirement and subsequent baseball experiment was heavily influenced by his fathers murder. Jordan was the most intimating mentally focused player in history. He would invent things in his mind about players or teams so he could play with a chip on his shoulder. Lebron is every much the best physical specimen to play the game. Lebron is a child when you compare him to Jordan’s mental toughness. That is what makes Jordan the GOAT. The only other player who could be considered GOAT is Kareem.
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Except for when he quit.
 
#783
#783
#787
#787
TBrown said:
He “quit” after winning a championship and his father was murdered.

Lebron has quit IN THE MIDDLE OF multiple playoff series.

GTabsoluteFO with that take.
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IDK what you're talking about with Lebron quitting? Probably the cramping in a 95-degree building and then not playing well against Dallas? I guess that's quitting, but you can't call that "quitting" and then say that retirement isn't quitting. That's literally what it is. You're using "quitting" to describe what you judge as him mentally checking out of a series.

Most athletes who win championships in their prime manage to keep playing the sport that they love. Most athletes whose loved ones die manage to keep on playing the sport that they love.

It was all of these things. He was sick of the grind. He was sick of the pressure. He was sad about his Dad. He was somewhat complacent with his 3peat. Face it, Jordan lost love for the game and thus stepped away. An incontrovertible fact that indicates a lack of dedication to it.
 
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#788
#788
1988, the Bulls and Pistons were tied 1-1, and then in the next 3 games, MJ scored just 72 points. Jordan averaged 35 ppg that year.

In 1989, The Bulls were up 2-1, and then in the next 3 games, MJ scored just 73 points. Jordan averaged 32 ppg that year.

We all know what kind of chatter we'd be hearing about quitting and choking if Lebron put up stat lines like those to blow series two years in a row. MJ, the greatest scorer of all time, gets a pass for averaging 24 ppg when his team needed him the most?
 
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#789
#789
In the interest of full disclosure, I didn’t read that post after the first sentence and I’m not reading anything else in this thread.

At a MINIMUM, lebron quit in the Celtics series. He has walked off the court with time left on the clock on multiple occasions. He walked out on Cleveland because he couldn’t win anymore 2x and walked out on Miami because he couldn’t win anymore.

You look absolutely ridiculous.
 
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#790
#790
TBrown said:
In the interest of full disclosure, I didn’t read that post after the first sentence and I’m not reading anything else in this thread.

At a MINIMUM, lebron quit in the Celtics series. He has walked off the court with time left on the clock on multiple occasions. He walked out on Cleveland because he couldn’t win anymore 2x and walked out on Miami because he couldn’t win anymore.

You look absolutely ridiculous.
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Ahh, so changing franchises is quitting now. Stepping off the court early is quitting. LOL, OK.

You lost sight of the point. I was talking about dedication to the game specifically, you got butthurt about my use of "quit", and now you're talking about changing teams in free agency. It has no bearing on the actual point.
 
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#791
#791
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#792
#792
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
Bottom line Jordan>Lebron and it’s not even close and Jordan ran a 4.38. Prove me wrong on the 40.
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Haha, what? You can't prove a negative and my point has never been "he didn't run a hand-timed 4.38." My point is that the evidence we have is not trustworthy.

Imagine being so insecure about Jordan's greatness that you are willing to accept an unsubstantiated 40-year old memory about a flawed measurement as gospel.
 
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#793
#793
n_huffhines said:
1988, the Bulls and Pistons were tied 1-1, and then in the next 3 games, MJ scored just 72 points. Jordan averaged 35 ppg that year.

In 1989, The Bulls were up 2-1, and then in the next 3 games, MJ scored just 73 points. Jordan averaged 32 ppg that year.

We all know what kind of chatter we'd be hearing about quitting and choking if Lebron put up stat lines like those to blow series two years in a row. MJ, the greatest scorer of all time, gets a pass for averaging 24 ppg when his team needed him the most?
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Ever heard of the Jordan rules ?
 
#794
#794
n_huffhines said:
I'm 39. Even if I were 29, you act like youtube doesn't exist. In terms of speed, I trust what I see on youtube more than my memory of 1991. You should too.

FWIW, hand times typically err on the fast side.

Hand-timed versus Electronic-timed 40 Yard Dash - Zybek Sports
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They missed one important observation unless I missed it. If you are late in starting a hand held stoowatch, then you can be late at the finish. It evens out. The difference between hand timed and electronic 40’s is overrated IMO.
 
#795
#795
n_huffhines said:
Haha, what? You can't prove a negative and my point has never been "he didn't run a hand-timed 4.38." My point is that the evidence we have is not trustworthy.

Imagine being so insecure about Jordan's greatness that you are willing to accept an unsubstantiated 40-year old memory about a flawed measurement as gospel.
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Read my next post.
 
#796
#796
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
Ever heard of the Jordan rules ?
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Yeah, they're completely overhyped. It was a thing that existed but the reality does not match the legend. If they were smashing him so badly, why did he only shoot 18 FT's in those last 3 games in 1988?

They were just stopping him. That's it.

You can make a nice 2 minute highlight for a documentary that makes it look like the Pistons were absolutely murdering everybody every minute, but the truth is far less violent. Check this out. I've posted this here several times...they played each other 13 times this year and these are all the hard fouls and cheap shots. Most of the good ones aren't even against Jordan. I promise you, it's not how you remember it.

 
#797
#797
ABINGDON VOL FAN said:
They missed one important observation unless I missed it. If you are late in starting a hand held stoowatch, then you can be late at the finish. It evens out. The difference between hand timed and electronic 40’s is overrated IMO.
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Your assumption that it will be consistent is entirely baseless. That study shows on average people start later than they stop. You can come to this conclusion with common sense. When you start a timer, you are reacting to their first movement, but you can time up the finish because you can know about when they are going to cross the line and it's not reliant on a reaction.
 
#798
#798
n_huffhines said:
Ahh, so changing franchises is quitting now. Stepping off the court early is quitting. LOL, OK.

You lost sight of the point. I was talking about dedication to the game specifically, you got butthurt about my use of "quit", and now you're talking about changing teams in free agency. It has no bearing on the actual point.
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MJ’s bio on the NBA website states MJ is GOAT. When and if they remove this statement you can argue that Lebron is in the mix for GOAT. I would personally put Lebron behind MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Bird , Magic, and Tim Duncan. Lebron would be third string if all the greats were playing at the same time.
 
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#799
#799
n_huffhines said:
Your assumption that it will be consistent is entirely baseless. That study shows on average people start later than they stop. You can come to this conclusion with common sense. When you start a timer, you are reacting to their first movement, but you can time up the finish because you can know about when they are going to cross the line and it's not reliant on a reaction.
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I disagree with your assumption. There is a recognition delay on both sides of the 40.
 
#800
#800
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, they're completely overhyped. It was a thing that existed but the reality does not match the legend. If they were smashing him so badly, why did he only shoot 18 FT's in those last 3 games in 1988?

They were just stopping him. That's it.

You can make a nice 2 minute highlight for a documentary that makes it look like the Pistons were absolutely murdering everybody every minute, but the truth is far less violent. Check this out. I've posted this here several times...they played each other 13 times this year and these are all the hard fouls and cheap shots. Most of the good ones aren't even against Jordan. I promise you, it's not how you remember it.

Click to expand...

Your good at revisionist history. Their stated intent was to not allow Jordan any layups. They murdered him anytime he tried to go into the lane. I watched every bit of it as it happened. Especially in 90 and 91.
 
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