The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#52
#52
k-town_king said:
The athletes aren't better though. Some train better. Out of the top ten highest verticals ever about 7 played in the 80s and 90s when we also had taller and heavier players. Not much change in athletes from the 80s until now. Just more of them train. Guys that were top athletes in the 80s and 90s would be the best in the NBA now.
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Outliers are not representative of the league's overall athleticism. If we're gonna go with outliers, I'll put Westbrook, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, and AD against any 5 from the 90's. MJ and Shaq can hang with that list. Who else? Anybody? Kemp?
 
#53
#53
n_huffhines said:
Lmao. Please somebody back him up on this.

You know Harden has defensive highlight reels too, right?

Eric Snow? He played in the 90's and not the 10's, bro. I think he's older than Iverson. The 00's kinda sucked. You'll get no argument from me there.
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Oh my bad Snow was All NBA defensive team the year before Lebron was drafted.

Ok 2010s only. His is bigger and more athletic than Bradley, Smart, CP3, Allen, Holliday, Beverley, Conley and Sefolosha.

6'6 with hops and a J. He was way better a defender than 75% of the All NBA guards in the "Lebron Era" also bigger and more athletic.

 
#54
#54
95 Vol Alum said:
I don’t have an answer. I just disagreed with your notion that today’s players try harder on defense. James Harden being the lone exception. Dude balls on D.
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Funny i mentioned him right before you.

Obviously i am not arguing that everybody today is a great defender but I suppose you'd rather argue with straw men
 
#55
#55
k-town_king said:
The athletes aren't better though. Some train better. Out of the top ten highest verticals ever about 7 played in the 80s and 90s when we also had taller and heavier players. Not much change in athletes from the 80s until now. Just more of them train. Guys that were top athletes in the 80s and 90s would be the best in the NBA now.
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The talent pool is so much bigger today. It's basically a mathematical certainty that the athletes are better.
 
#60
#60
n_huffhines said:
Outliers are not representative of the league's overall athleticism. If we're gonna go with outliers, I'll put Westbrook, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, and AD against any 5 from the 90's. MJ and David Robinson can hang with that list. Who else? Anybody?
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Robert Pack, Dee Brown, Spudd Webb, Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas all compete with or beat any pg.

SG we already know. We also have several others like David Thompson who compete with anyone today.

SF? No one beats Nique athletically but also Kenny Walker and others.

PF? Larry Nance, Karl Malone a ton others
C? Admiral, Daryl Dawkins, Hakeem, Tom Chambers

Dude they had grown men with muscle who would still take off and dunk on you. Guys are not more athletic now. Its a flasehood. We have a ton of out of shape and unathletic players now. Its easier than ever to be an unathletic player. All you have to do is be able to shoot outside. You used to have to be athletic enough and strong enough to drive or score.
 
#62
#62
n_huffhines said:
Outliers are not representative of the league's overall athleticism. If we're gonna go with outliers, I'll put Westbrook, Harden, Lebron, Giannis, and AD against any 5 from the 90's. MJ and Shaq can hang with that list. Who else? Anybody? Kemp?
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If you want straight five on five with athletes I'll smash this team anytime.

Payton vs Westbrook
MJ vs Harden
Nique vs LBJ
Hakeem vs Giannis
Admiral vs Ad

I can also throw Kemp, Malone, Zo, Skinny Shaq down low.
 
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#64
#64
k-town_king said:
Robert Pack, Dee Brown, Spudd Webb, Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas all compete with or beat any pg.

SG we already know. We also have several others like David Thompson who compete with anyone today.

SF? No one beats Nique athletically but also Kenny Walker and others.

PF? Larry Nance, Karl Malone a ton others
C? Admiral, Daryl Dawkins, Hakeem, Tom Chambers

Dude they had grown men with muscle who would still take off and dunk on you. Guys are not more athletic now. Its a flasehood. We have a ton of out of shape and unathletic players now. Its easier than ever to be an unathletic player. All you have to do is be able to shoot outside. You used to have to be athletic enough and strong enough to drive or score.
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This list is mostly terrible.

Spudd Webb? He's a complete weakling. Athleticism isn't just about vertical. None of those guys have the burst and quickness that Westbrook has and he's stronger and bigger than all of them. Outside of Zeke and KJ, they're not even on John Wall, Ja Morant, Donovan Mitchell, Oladipo, or De'Aaron Fox's level.

Lebron weighs what Malone weighed and there is no comparison with athleticism. Malone was a slightly bigger David West with really good conditioning. Take him the off the list - Jazz fan
 
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#65
#65
95 Vol Alum said:
Scottie Pippen was no slouch on D, iirc.
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Maybe the GOAT on ball defender. Jordan never had to face the best perimeter defender of his era, LOL. Conversely, Pippen never had to face the best scorer of his era.
 
#66
#66
k-town_king said:
If you want straight five on five with athletes I'll smash this team anytime.

Payton vs Westbrook
MJ vs Harden
Nique vs LBJ
Hakeem vs Giannis
Admiral vs Ad

I can also throw Kemp, Malone, Zo, Skinny Shaq down low.
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2 centers? Yeah, the big men were great in the 90's. I was just picking the best athlete that immediately came to mind at each position. Nique is not on Lebron's level. Payton is not on Westbrook's level. The other 3 are good matches. Jordan has better burst and vert than Harden but I think Harden has quicker feet and might be the strongest guard ever. You named 8 guys...5 bigs and 2 guards. What's going on? Spud Webb not making the cut here?
 
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#67
#67
k-town_king said:
Robert Pack, Dee Brown, Spudd Webb, Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas all compete with or beat any pg.
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Not sure about Spud Webb. He could jump but he wasn't even starting for most of his career. I'd have to include Terry Porter, Penny Hardawy and Tim Hardaway on the list as far as pure athletes at PG.
 
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#68
#68
n_huffhines said:
2 centers? Yeah, the big men were great in the 90's. I was just picking the best athlete that immediately came to mind at each position. Nique is not on Lebron's level. Payton is not on Westbrook's level. The other 3 are good matches. Jordan has better burst and vert than Harden but I think Harden has quicker feet and might be the strongest guard ever. You named 8 guys...5 bigs and 2 guards. What's going on? Spud Webb not making the cut here?
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Harden is not stronger than Jordan.

Payton would shut down Westbrook. So would KJ. So would Isiah. All would give him the business on O.

I could also put Penny up against Westbrook. There are a ton of pgs that could match up with Westbrook.

Nique was faster, more hops. Same height. LeBron gets him on strength but Nique kills him in quickness.
 
#69
#69
GAVol said:
Not sure about Spud Webb. He could jump but he wasn't even starting for most of his career. I'd have to include Terry Porter, Penny Hardawy and Tim Hardaway on the list as far as pure athletes at PG.
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There's a ton. That just furthers my point. Plenty of great athletic players at the point in the 80s and 90s.
.
 
#70
#70
k-town_king said:
There's a ton. That just furthers my point. Plenty of great athletic players at the point in the 80s and 90s.
.
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Of course there were. Even slightly attributing Michael Jordan's success to the era he played in is completely ridiculous.
 
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#71
#71
k-town_king said:
Harden is not stronger than Jordan.

Payton would shut down Westbrook. So would KJ. So would Isiah. All would give him the business on O.

I could also put Penny up against Westbrook. There are a ton of pgs that could match up with Westbrook.

Nique was faster, more hops. Same height. LeBron gets him on strength but Nique kills him in quickness.
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Isiah? He didn't even play good D.

You'll say anything.
 
#72
#72
GAVol said:
Of course there were. Even slightly attributing Michael Jordan's success to the era he played in is completely ridiculous.
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What? Everybody who is successful can partially attribute their level of success to their era. For example, we can point to MJ's best 3p shooting years and talk about how the line was 22'. Or we can talk about how average the perimeter D was that he faced in the finals. We can talk about how his scandalous ass didn't have to deal with the internet.

Everybody is a product of their era, to some degree.
 
#73
#73
n_huffhines said:
Isiah? He didn't even play good D.

You'll say anything.
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Averaged 2 spg for his career. Super fast with a 40 inch vert. He could slow down Westbrook. I don't think Westbrook would have any chance at guarding him.
n_huffhines said:
What? Everybody who is successful can partially attribute their level of success to their era. For example, we can point to MJ's best 3p shooting years and talk about how the line was 22'. Or we can talk about how average the perimeter D was that he faced in the finals. We can talk about how his scandalous ass didn't have to deal with the internet.

Everybody is a product of their era, to some degree.
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Its easier to score now. MJ would also take the more analytically positive shots now. He would have even more success. He shot way more jumpers than LeBron has. The mid range jumper is the toughest place to score from. He lived in the mid range.

He faced just as good or better defenders than LeBron has. I already disproved the bigger and more athletic argument.

Payton is a better defender than any pg from the LBJ Finals. Russell and Majerle are great wing defenders. As good or better than all except for Kawhi.

If the internet was around then he would be even more of a gawd. He did things nightly that Lebron never could do in a whole career. He created art every night on the court.
 
#74
#74
k-town_king said:
Averaged 2 spg for his career. Super fast with a 40 inch vert. He could slow down Westbrook. I don't think Westbrook would have any chance at guarding him.

Its easier to score now. MJ would also take the more analytically positive shots now. He would have even more success. He shot way more jumpers than LeBron has. The mid range jumper is the toughest place to score from. He lived in the mid range.

He faced just as good or better defenders than LeBron has. I already disproved the bigger and more athletic argument.

Payton is a better defender than any pg from the LBJ Finals. Russell and Majerle are great wing defenders. As good or better than all except for Kawhi.

If the internet was around then he would be even more of a gawd. He did things nightly that Lebron never could do in a whole career. He created art every night on the court.
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LOL at "disproved". You think saying Majerle was good at D is "proof".

Russell was as good as anybody today not named Kawhi? Like Bryon Russell? He was a "pretty good" defender. One of the only decent perimeter defenders MJ faced in 6 finals, so I guess you probably feel compelled to talk him up regardless of reality.

What won't you say is the question?
 
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#75
#75
n_huffhines said:
LOL at "disproved". You think saying Majerle was good at D is "proof".

Russell was as good as anybody today not named Kawhi? Like Bryon Russell? He was a "pretty good" defender. One of the only decent perimeter defenders MJ faced in 6 finals, so I guess you probably feel compelled to talk him up regardless of reality.

What won't you say is the question?
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You said players were smaller and less athletic. I proved that was wrong. Height peaked in the 80s and 90s. Only a few of the top ten verticals belong to guys in the last 20 years. That was the main part of your argument.

The Majerle thing was you acting like he wasn't a great athlete. He was longer and more athletic than at least half of the All NBA defenders during Lebron's prime. I put a whole list. He was a better defender than most of Lebron's guard competition. Also Lebron is often guarded by Small forwards. They do play different positions. If we take the guards off the Finals teams Lebron faced and matched them up with Lebron then he would have faced no good defenders except Igoudala.

But then again Jason Terry gave Lebron that work in a Finals. I guess you could count him. lmao
 
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