The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#27
#27
n_huffhines said:
Of course you are going to step out more on Curry but the point is multiple defenders step out harder on Curry at 27' than one defender did on Jordan at 22'. You said it yourself. They had to play 2 yards off Jordan because even with hand checking, they were too slow to stay in front of him.

Let's just go on the record, was the D in the 90's better?
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I don’t really give a **** I just think you made a stupid illustration
 
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#29
#29
Acuna_Matata said:
You can argue that, but the play was way more physical. Some of these shifty PG's in today's league wouldn't be allowed in the paint
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The perimeter defenders couldn't keep people out of the paint, but yes, sometimes they fouled guys hard and they were allowed to hand check and they had bigger centers, so in those regards the D was more physical. It's not like they were fouling guys hard all the time, tho. This highlight reel shows how many times Jordan easily gets in the key and he's never fouled hard once. Why weren't they just clobbering him if that's the way it was? Just watch this whole thing and tell me what you like about the D.

 
#30
#30
n_huffhines said:
Of course you are going to step out more on Curry but the point is multiple defenders step out harder on Curry at 27' than one defender did on Jordan at 22'. You said it yourself. They had to play 2 yards off Jordan because even with hand checking, they were too slow to stay in front of him.

Let's just go on the record, was the D in the 90's better?
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I wouldn't say it is better or worse.....it was different and related to the game being played at the time. The offensive schemes were different. No zone was allowed (not sure that really matters though). Pacing and spacing was different.

I don't disagree that players are a bit more athletic in comparison today to yesterday. So much more knowledge about nutrition, fatigue, lifestyle, etc and resources aimed at optimizing those.

Outside of athleticism, what defensive revolutions have come to be in the last 5 years that transformed it into something so much better vs the 90's (assuming that can be assessed)? In my mind, I keep coming back to the "no one wants the GnG Grizzlies" in the playoffs comments because their defense and style were so different (and some might say "old school").
 
#31
#31
Guys aren't more athletic now. I posted height by position. The guards are not taller or longer now. Bad three point d is played all the time even with guys taking a million a game.

The All Defensive First Team guards during the "LeBron era" are smaller on average than the guards during the Jordan Championship run. Several CP3, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Smart, Bledsoe,Jrue, Oladipo, Rondo appearances. 6-6'3 pgs and a bunch of 6'4 sg appearances. MJ 6'6 and mostly with a bunch of 6'3 guys like Dumars and Robertson then 6'5 Michael Cooper. He was always the sg.


MJ was so deadly driving and mid range they would rather "live with" 6 threes than him drop 30 driving and shooting pull ups from mid range.
 
#32
#32
95 Vol Alum said:
I wouldn't say it is better or worse.....it was different and related to the game being played at the time. The offensive schemes were different. No zone was allowed (not sure that really matters though). Pacing and spacing was different.

I don't disagree that players are a bit more athletic in comparison today to yesterday. So much more knowledge about nutrition, fatigue, lifestyle, etc and resources aimed at optimizing those.

Outside of athleticism, what defensive revolutions have come to be in the last 5 years that transformed it into something so much better vs the 90's (assuming that can be assessed)? In my mind, I keep coming back to the "no one wants the GnG Grizzlies" in the playoffs comments because their defense and style were so different (and some might say "old school").
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I don't think that today they are a bit more athletic, I think they are much more athletic. When they removed hand-checking, there was a dearth of talent specifically capable of stopping guards that penetrate. We had 4 dribble-penetrate style guards win finals MVP that decade (Wade, Parker, Kobe x2, Billups). Wade is the perfect example. He almost single-handedly beat an overall better Mavs team because they had nobody to stop him. Even the 64-win, defensive-minded Pistons couldn't slow down Wade. He shot 62% against them in a 6 game conference finals. The league had to adjust, especially as the game spread out. Our centers are smaller and more athletic as a part of that revolution. Back in the day, you could easily get away with being a guy that just defended your own position. Not only does it take more athleticism to switch and defend multiple positions, it takes more skill and communication.

So if you want to say the defenses were geared towards stopping PF's and C's, but they're every bit as good as today's defenses, I don't really agree but I can't say you're wrong. Maybe defending a skilled post player is harder than anything guys are doing today, IDK. Either way, I still don't see the defensive effort back then that I see today.

With respect to Michael Jordan playing today, people think he'd be better today because of the rules, but the perimeter D guys today would throw at him are so much better. It's not even close.

Watch those Suns highlights. Watch how slow Majerle is. It's not even like Jordan's crossing him over or fooling him. It's just one step and he's gone...Dan Majerle was a 2x all-defensive honors guy. Nothing else needs to be said.
 
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#33
#33
k-town_king said:
Guys aren't more athletic now. I posted height by position. The guards are not taller or longer now. Bad three point d is played all the time even with guys taking a million a game.

The All Defensive First Team guards during the "LeBron era" are smaller on average than the guards during the Jordan Championship run. Several CP3, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Smart, Bledsoe,Jrue, Oladipo, Rondo appearances. 6-6'3 pgs and a bunch of 6'4 sg appearances. MJ 6'6 and mostly with a bunch of 6'3 guys like Dumars and Robertson then 6'5 Michael Cooper. He was always the sg.

MJ was so deadly driving and mid range they would rather "live with" 6 threes than him drop 30 driving and shooting pull ups from mid range.
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All of those guys are better defenders than Dan Majerle. Who cares if he's big if he can't move side to side?

You forgot 6-timer 6' 0" Mookie Blaylock, not that I think comparing the height of all-defensive guys is very meaningful.
 
#34
#34
Oh yeah, and another big difference between today and yester year...teams today care far more about wingspan than height, and it's because it's a better measure of defensive potential. Defense is less about how tall you are, and it's far more about how much space you can close off.
 
#36
#36
Ah it’s entirely likely you’re arguing with posts I cannot see

But my point remains
 
#38
#38
I’m with Brown. I am not really arguing the differences you are noting in the type of players. But what defensive innovations are we seeing outside of the that. None that I would note.

All this switching has resulted in higher than ever offensive ratings and scoring. Most strategies are to not let them play D.
 
#40
#40
95 Vol Alum said:
I’m with Brown. I am not really arguing the differences you are noting in the type of players. But what defensive innovations are we seeing outside of the that. None that I would note.

All this switching has resulted in higher than ever offensive ratings and scoring. Most strategies are to not let them play D.
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Wait, what? You're blaming the defense instead of crediting the offense? I believe the increased efficiency clearly comes from turning long 2's into 3's and all 5 guys on D are doing their best to defend 1,250 sq feet of half court offense, whereas their counterparts in the 90's just hunkered down in area area 2/3 that size with far less offensive movement.

You seem really focused on innovations beyond what's been mentioned, but innovation is just a secondary reason. I've been saying the athletes are better and that the effort is better.
 
#41
#41
n_huffhines said:
Wait, what? You're blaming the defense instead of crediting the offense? I believe the increased efficiency clearly comes from turning long 2's into 3's and all 5 guys on D are doing their best to defend 1,250 sq feet of half court offense, whereas their counterparts in the 90's just hunkered down in area area 2/3 that size with far less offensive movement.

You seem really focused on innovations beyond what's been mentioned, but innovation is just a secondary reason. I've been saying the athletes are better and that the effort is better.
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No, I don’t. All the innovation is on offense. I agree that the fitness and style of player has changed, but not the size. I don’t agree that effort is better. There are a lot of plays where no defense is even played due to the style.
 
#42
#42
95 Vol Alum said:
No, I don’t. All the innovation is on offense. I agree that the fitness and style of player has changed, but not the size. I don’t agree that effort is better. There are a lot of plays where no defense is even played due to the style.
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If you say all the innovation is on offense you are literally saying D hasn't changed and that's ridiculous.

How about this....is it easier or harder to get away with hiding a bad defender today?
 
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#45
#45
n_huffhines said:
If you say all the innovation is on offense you are literally saying D hasn't changed and that's ridiculous.

How about this....is it easier or harder to get away with hiding a bad defender today?
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Trick question. They got rid of them all the last couple of years.

Maybe the Wizards have a better answer.
 
#47
#47
n_huffhines said:
All of those guys are better defenders than Dan Majerle. Who cares if he's big if he can't move side to side?

You forgot 6-timer 6' 0" Mookie Blaylock, not that I think comparing the height of all-defensive guys is very meaningful.
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I said specifically First Team. Mookie was never First Team in a year Jordan played. He just held Jordan's spot for his two year retirement.

Majerle was never FIrst Team. Even if he was what are you smoking? Couldn't move side to side? He was more athletic than All NBA defenders during Lebrons time like Tony Allen, Eric Snow, Chauncey Billups, Raja Bell, Bowen, Avery Bradley, Conley, Avery Bradley and several more.

I'm really starting to think you started watching bball in 2010 if you think Majerle was some stiff white guy. lmao. He had Steph range and was super athletic. They didn't call him "Thunder Dan" for nothing.
 
#48
#48
k-town_king said:
I said specifically First Team. Mookie was never First Team in a year Jordan played. He just held Jordan's spot for his two year retirement.

Majerle was never FIrst Team. Even if he was what are you smoking? Couldn't move side to side? He was more athletic than All NBA defenders during Lebrons time like Tony Allen, Eric Snow, Chauncey Billups, Raja Bell, Bowen, Avery Bradley, Conley, Avery Bradley and several more.

I'm really starting to think you started watching bball in 2010 if you think Majerle was some stiff white guy. lmao. He had Steph range and was super athletic. They didn't call him "Thunder Dan" for nothing.
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Lmao. Please somebody back him up on this.

You know Harden has defensive highlight reels too, right?

Eric Snow? He played in the 90's and not the 10's, bro. I think he's older than Iverson. The 00's kinda sucked. You'll get no argument from me there.
 
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#50
#50
n_huffhines said:
Wait, what? You're blaming the defense instead of crediting the offense? I believe the increased efficiency clearly comes from turning long 2's into 3's and all 5 guys on D are doing their best to defend 1,250 sq feet of half court offense, whereas their counterparts in the 90's just hunkered down in area area 2/3 that size with far less offensive movement.

You seem really focused on innovations beyond what's been mentioned, but innovation is just a secondary reason. I've been saying the athletes are better and that the effort is better.
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The athletes aren't better though. Some train better. Out of the top ten highest verticals ever about 7 played in the 80s and 90s when we also had taller and heavier players. Not much change in athletes from the 80s until now. Just more of them train. Guys that were top athletes in the 80s and 90s would be the best in the NBA now.
 
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