The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#301
#301
By summer of 1992, Stockton was better than Isaiah, and it probably didn't help that USA basketball was aware of the way Pistons were perceived.

Honestly, Isaiah was really overrated. He was so dynamic and had some big-time moments and all-time performances, but it's kind of the Iverson/Billups thing where the team won because of elite D and rebounding, not because their PG was carrying the offense to success. Isaiah had 1 year in his whole career with good shooting efficiency. It's not like his passing efficiency was anything special, either.

Dream Team builder: MJ never discussed Thomas
 
#302
#302
n_huffhines said:
By summer of 1992, Stockton was better than Isaiah, and it probably didn't help that USA basketball was aware of the way Pistons were perceived.

Honestly, Isaiah was really overrated. He was so dynamic and had some big-time moments and all-time performances, but it's kind of the Iverson/Billups thing where the team won because of elite D and rebounding, not because their PG was carrying the offense to success. Isaiah had 1 year in his whole career with good shooting efficiency. It's not like his passing efficiency was anything special, either.

Dream Team builder: MJ never discussed Thomas
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Isiah is not overrated. Stockton was great though. They are both top 4 pgs All Time along with Magic and Oscar.
 
#303
#303
k-town_king said:
Isiah is not overrated. Stockton was great though. They are both top 4 pgs All Time along with Magic and Oscar.
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It's just math. If you consistently make shots at a lower rate than the average NBA player for your entire career, how good are you really? The handle was elite. The quickness was elite. The playmaking was nice. But there are unstoppable guys, and then there are guys that score a lot because they shoot a lot. He was the latter.
 
#304
#304
n_huffhines said:
It's just math. If you consistently make shots at a lower rate than the average NBA player for your entire career, how good are you really? The handle was elite. The quickness was elite. The playmaking was nice. But there are unstoppable guys, and then there are guys that score a lot because they shoot a lot. He was the latter.
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Dude just stop with this efficiency argument. I see what you mean. It's just not accurate completely.

When you are the main or only good scorer and the defense keys on you then you will be less efficient then a second option guy or an average player. Those guys take a higher percentage of open shots and take less shots.

Like I have said before using this argument someone like Klay Thompson was better than Kobe. He is more efficient.

Zeke averaged 20 10 and 2 four times! 19 9 and 2 for his career. He was great. He was the focal point of the offense. Stockton was the set up man. They played the position differently. Both All Time great pgs.
 
#305
#305
k-town_king said:
Dude just stop with this efficiency argument. I see what you mean. It's just not accurate completely.

When you are the main or only good scorer and the defense keys on you then you will be less efficient then a second option guy or an average player. Those guys take a higher percentage of open shots and take less shots.

Like I have said before using this argument someone like Klay Thompson was better than Kobe. He is more efficient.

Zeke averaged 20 10 and 2 four times! 19 9 and 2 for his career. He was great. He was the focal point of the offense. Stockton was the set up man. They played the position differently. Both All Time great pgs.
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He had Dumars and he had Dantley for a while, and they were both efficient, good scorers. It didn't make a difference.

Nobody is arguing Klay is better than Kobe because of efficiency. You can run the offense through Kobe and he scores a lot more. You can't run it thru Klay, so it's a poor comparison. You can run the offense thru Stock and Isiah. One is extremely efficient. The other is not efficient, and it's a fair comparison.

NBA history is littered with primary scorers that were incredibly efficient. Their efficiency doesn't really change as teammates come and go. MJ was most efficient between '88 and '91. Lebron's last year in Cleveland was the 3rd most efficient of his career. Barkley was most efficient in Philly. David Robinson's 5 most efficient years came before Duncan. Kobe's most efficient year was 2007, after Shaq and before Gasol. The list goes on and on. It's not really about teammates. You're either efficient or you're not.
 
#308
#308
zjcvols said:
They widened the lane when Wilt came in to the league.

I am not sure of any particular one rule change for MJ though. Maybe referring to how they changed calling fouls?
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When did doubling off ball become illegal?
 
#309
#309
n_huffhines said:
He had Dumars and he had Dantley for a while, and they were both efficient, good scorers. It didn't make a difference.

Nobody is arguing Klay is better than Kobe because of efficiency. You can run the offense through Kobe and he scores a lot more. You can't run it thru Klay, so it's a poor comparison. You can run the offense thru Stock and Isiah. One is extremely efficient. The other is not efficient, and it's a fair comparison.

NBA history is littered with primary scorers that were incredibly efficient. Their efficiency doesn't really change as teammates come and go. MJ was most efficient between '88 and '91. Lebron's last year in Cleveland was the 3rd most efficient of his career. Barkley was most efficient in Philly. David Robinson's 5 most efficient years came before Duncan. Kobe's most efficient year was 2007, after Shaq and before Gasol. The list goes on and on. It's not really about teammates. You're either efficient or you're not.
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Dude Dantley was with him one and a half seasons. The one he was the ppg leader 20 to 19.5 Zeke outscored him 1577 points to 1380. He was of course also the assists leader. Dumars was a second or third option during the championship era for them. He was never the leading scorer on a team that won it all.

Zeke was the focal point of the offense. Of course he had help. They had a great team around him.
 
#311
#311
k-town_king said:
Dude Dantley was with him one and a half seasons. The one he was the ppg leader 20 to 19.5 Zeke outscored him 1577 points to 1380. He was of course also the assists leader. Dumars was a second or third option during the championship era for them. He was never the leading scorer on a team that won it all.

Zeke was the focal point of the offense. Of course he had help. They had a great team around him.
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What was his shooting efficiency for that season and a half? Did it make a difference? Or was Zeke non-efficient no matter who was around him?...

I'll save you the trouble. He wasn't efficient.
 
#312
#312
Notorious B.E.N said:
Oh good this argument is still going, we haven't had enough of it.
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Well, we've had 6 total posts about how good Isiah was. Sorry for going on and on about it.

Is it worse to talk basketball in basketball threads, ad nauseam? Or to never talk basketball but complain about people talking basketball?

Thank you for your valued contributions to the NBA forum.
 
#313
#313
n_huffhines said:
Well, we've had 6 total posts about how good Isiah was. Sorry for going on and on about it.

Is it worse to talk basketball in basketball threads, ad nauseam? Or to never talk basketball but complain about people talking basketball?

Thank you for your valued contributions to the NBA forum.
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Yall are just arguing in a circle, we know where yall stand and nobody's changing anybody's mind. Let. It. Go.
 
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#314
#314
Notorious B.E.N said:
Yall are just arguing in a circle, we know where yall stand and nobody's changing anybody's mind. Let. It. Go.
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I know I'm not changing his mind. That's not the goal. I just like talking hoops and I'm bored at the end of the workday. You must be bored too, otherwise why would you read our comments that you hate so much? Talk some hoops for once. You might enjoy yourself.
 
#315
#315
n_huffhines said:
I know I'm not changing his mind. That's not the goal. I just like talking hoops and I'm bored at the end of the workday. You must be bored too, otherwise why would you read our comments that you hate so much? Talk some hoops for once. You might enjoy yourself.
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I do talk hoops but not with a wall that just keeps throwing the same thing back.
 
#316
#316
n_huffhines said:
I know I'm not changing his mind. That's not the goal. I just like talking hoops and I'm bored at the end of the workday. You must be bored too, otherwise why would you read our comments that you hate so much? Talk some hoops for once. You might enjoy yourself.
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I understand what you are doing, you're saying it's not as cut and dry as people want to think that there's nobody close to Jordan and i agree. But he won't listen to an argument and doesn't care. It's nauseating.
 
#317
#317
Notorious B.E.N said:
I understand what you are doing, you're saying it's not as cut and dry as people want to think that there's nobody close to Jordan and i agree. But he won't listen to an argument and doesn't care. It's nauseating.
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We're not even arguing Jordan right now. Haven't for days.
 
#320
#320
Wow, Crawford and Gordon over Noah, Grant, Rodman, and Butler...this is so perfect coming from an overrated, low IQ hooper

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#322
#322
Simmons on the Rewatchabulls did game 3 of the '93 finals and they're blown away that with KJ, Barkley, and all those shooters they don't run a single high pick n roll. It's basically an unstoppable play if you're built for it, and it's not even in their playbook. It boggles the mind.
 
#325
#325
GAVol said:
I didn’t understand knocking the defense on that play. Seemed to me that Ehlo was right there.
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It was solid enough D on an incredible athlete. Nothing to second guess. Not sure if you read the article, but Mark Price called BS on Harper too. Makes you wonder what's true and what's not (with any doc).
 
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