The Kim Caldwell System

[RetroVol]

A couple of weeks ago, I posted a thread on $ for Athletes about the compensation of athletes, how much schools control, etc. I was trying to understand the subject, and that thread produced some much appreciated insight. So, since Coach Kim's System comes up frequently in various threads. I thought it might be enlightening to have one place to pull together resources, thoughts, criticisms, and ongoing discussion. I'llstart it off with a statement of my understanding of that system that I put in one of the game threads. Maybe we can add to it with resources (videos, articles, where Kim has commented), analyses, suggestions, critiques, etc.

Here are what seem to me to be the components of the CKC system, maybe in order of importance:

1. Effort. All out, last two minutes of the championship game effort every time you're on the court. Kim has said it's an effort-based system. She's said when done right, players are glad to come out. I see it like interval training -- going really hard for 90 seconds to 3 minutes, then resting, then doing it again. Defense and rebounding are a lot about effort, and we all know what Pat said about offense, defense, and rebounding.

2. Pace. I'm a little less sure about where CKC is on this one, but the early roots of this system included shooting the first good shot. Then rebound and shoot again or defense. Two reasons. One, a good shot is a good shot; take it. And, two, shooting a good shot quickly and running back forces the other team to run also. Half-court sets give defensive players more of a chance to rest. (And, if you shoot fast enough, their "big" may be just getting don the court when she has to turn around and run back. Win, win, win.)

3. Full-Court Pressure: This helps with Pace, produces turnovers, and hopefully wears the other team out so their legs aren't there and shots start missing late in games. In some of our close losses last year, we came back late, just not quite enough. I do think this is one of the "learn" things. Learn the presses, learn the rotations, learn when to go for the double-team and how to do it, learn to pressure but still be able to cut off the ball handler so she can't just go straight toward the rim (a real weakness so far).

4. 3-Point Freedom. We all know this is a bit of a challenge this year. I think we really wanted Latson, but, oh, well. Anyway, it may more of a go to the basket off transition than pull up for a three, but the 3-point shot is a key for Coach Kim's approach, and I think she'll be trying to work it in as players settle in and learn how to get their best shots off in this system. We saw what happens when Robertson sets and shoots rather than trying to go off the bounce. Same is true for others. Knowing when it is the shot they should take and taking it without hesitation and with confidence will help.

5. Trust and Teamwork. Trusting your teammates to fill their roles in the presses. Trusting them to shoot their shots. Trusting yourself to shoot yours. Trusting enough that, when a shot or three fails to fall, you're still putting in the effort on the press, in the half-court defense, and rebounding. Trust and teamwork also generate poise, that ability to execute like practice in critical game situations. We've been short on that at times this year, but hopefully we will get there.

6. Frequent, multi-player substitutions: The frequent and hockey-style substitutions actually are what enable many of the components of this system. In addition, this approach means more players get significant minutes in every game, even important ones. Kim has commented about how quickly this changed team cohesion once they got used to it the first year she played under this system. It also seemed to have that effect (buy-in, cohesion) last year.

But, overall, I think the biggest thing is #1: all-out, intensive effort each time you're on the floor, then rest, then back at it. That is different from how most players have learned to play, and I suspect it is the biggest part of what has to "click." And without it, everything else in this system starts to look bad and, as Kim has said, you get some ugly looking basketball.


Edit to add links to resources. Mention good resources in posts and I'll add them here so we end up with a good overall resource.

Sports Illustrated story on Kim's System

Cora Hall story (Tennessean) on the addition of analytics this season

 

[chuckiepoo]

A couple of weeks ago, I posted a thread on $ for Athletes about the compensation of athletes, how much schools control, etc. I was trying to understand the subject, and that thread produced some much appreciated insight. So, since Coach Kim's System comes up frequently in various threads. I thought it might be enlightening to have one place to pull together resources, thoughts, criticisms, and ongoing discussion. I'llstart it off with a statement of my understanding of that system that I put in one of the game threads. Maybe we can add to it with resources (videos, articles, where Kim has commented), analyses, suggestions, critiques, etc.

Here are what seem to me to be the components of the CKC system, maybe in order of importance:

1. Effort. All out, last two minutes of the championship game effort every time you're on the court. Kim has said it's an effort-based system. She's said when done right, players are glad to come out. I see it like interval training -- going really hard for 90 seconds to 3 minutes, then resting, then doing it again. Defense and rebounding are a lot about effort, and we all know what Pat said about offense, defense, and rebounding.

2. Pace. I'm a little less sure about where CKC is on this one, but the early roots of this system included shooting the first good shot. Then rebound and shoot again or defense. Two reasons. One, a good shot is a good shot; take it. And, two, shooting a good shot quickly and running back forces the other team to run also. Half-court sets give defensive players more of a chance to rest. (And, if you shoot fast enough, their "big" may be just getting don the court when she has to turn around and run back. Win, win, win.)

3. Full-Court Pressure: This helps with Pace, produces turnovers, and hopefully wears the other team out so their legs aren't there and shots start missing late in games. In some of our close losses last year, we came back late, just not quite enough. I do think this is one of the "learn" things. Learn the presses, learn the rotations, learn when to go for the double-team and how to do it, learn to pressure but still be able to cut off the ball handler so she can't just go straight toward the rim (a real weakness so far).

4. 3-Point Freedom. We all know this is a bit of a challenge this year. I think we really wanted Latson, but, oh, well. Anyway, it may more of a go to the basket off transition than pull up for a three, but the 3-point shot is a key for Coach Kim's approach, and I think she'll be trying to work it in as players settle in and learn how to get their best shots off in this system. We saw what happens when Robertson sets and shoots rather than trying to go off the bounce. Same is true for others. Knowing when it is the shot they should take and taking it without hesitation and with confidence will help.

5. Trust and Teamwork. Trusting your teammates to fill their roles in the presses. Trusting them to shoot their shots. Trusting yourself to shoot yours. Trusting enough that, when a shot or three fails to fall, you're still putting in the effort on the press, in the half-court defense, and rebounding. Trust and teamwork also generate poise, that ability to execute like practice in critical game situations. We've been short on that at times this year, but hopefully we will get there.

But, overall, I think the biggest thing is #1: all-out, intensive effort each time you're on the floor, then rest, then back at it. That is different from how most players have learned to play, and I suspect it is the biggest part of what has to "click." And without it, everything else in this system starts to look bad and, as Kim has said, you get some ugly looking basketball.

Great thread title. I had considered a similar thread but was thinking more along the lines of “Kim’s System vs Conventional Wisdom”.

 

[Rooster1]

Great thread title. I had considered a similar thread but was thinking more along the lines of “Kim’s System vs Conventional Wisdom”.

I think we will know enough at the end of this season to have opinions, it still seems too early right now. I could still see it going either way if I’m honest, but I think the chances are above solid she will make this work, likely with some tweaks imo.

 

[Jax_Vol]

Rick & Matt Insell disapprove of this thread

 

[kell7517]

I believe #3 is our weakness the most, as you mentioned as well. Especially against talented ball handlers and if a team has two of them on the court at the same time. We usually get eaten alive for the most part. Apply some pressure to get some time off the clock. But don’t get behind the ball handler and start chasing. Doesn’t end well, most of the time.

 

[Lucy]

A couple of weeks ago, I posted a thread on $ for Athletes about the compensation of athletes, how much schools control, etc. I was trying to understand the subject, and that thread produced some much appreciated insight. So, since Coach Kim's System comes up frequently in various threads. I thought it might be enlightening to have one place to pull together resources, thoughts, criticisms, and ongoing discussion. I'llstart it off with a statement of my understanding of that system that I put in one of the game threads. Maybe we can add to it with resources (videos, articles, where Kim has commented), analyses, suggestions, critiques, etc.

Here are what seem to me to be the components of the CKC system, maybe in order of importance:

1. Effort. All out, last two minutes of the championship game effort every time you're on the court. Kim has said it's an effort-based system. She's said when done right, players are glad to come out. I see it like interval training -- going really hard for 90 seconds to 3 minutes, then resting, then doing it again. Defense and rebounding are a lot about effort, and we all know what Pat said about offense, defense, and rebounding.

2. Pace. I'm a little less sure about where CKC is on this one, but the early roots of this system included shooting the first good shot. Then rebound and shoot again or defense. Two reasons. One, a good shot is a good shot; take it. And, two, shooting a good shot quickly and running back forces the other team to run also. Half-court sets give defensive players more of a chance to rest. (And, if you shoot fast enough, their "big" may be just getting don the court when she has to turn around and run back. Win, win, win.)

3. Full-Court Pressure: This helps with Pace, produces turnovers, and hopefully wears the other team out so their legs aren't there and shots start missing late in games. In some of our close losses last year, we came back late, just not quite enough. I do think this is one of the "learn" things. Learn the presses, learn the rotations, learn when to go for the double-team and how to do it, learn to pressure but still be able to cut off the ball handler so she can't just go straight toward the rim (a real weakness so far).

4. 3-Point Freedom. We all know this is a bit of a challenge this year. I think we really wanted Latson, but, oh, well. Anyway, it may more of a go to the basket off transition than pull up for a three, but the 3-point shot is a key for Coach Kim's approach, and I think she'll be trying to work it in as players settle in and learn how to get their best shots off in this system. We saw what happens when Robertson sets and shoots rather than trying to go off the bounce. Same is true for others. Knowing when it is the shot they should take and taking it without hesitation and with confidence will help.

5. Trust and Teamwork. Trusting your teammates to fill their roles in the presses. Trusting them to shoot their shots. Trusting yourself to shoot yours. Trusting enough that, when a shot or three fails to fall, you're still putting in the effort on the press, in the half-court defense, and rebounding. Trust and teamwork also generate poise, that ability to execute like practice in critical game situations. We've been short on that at times this year, but hopefully we will get there.

But, overall, I think the biggest thing is #1: all-out, intensive effort each time you're on the floor, then rest, then back at it. That is different from how most players have learned to play, and I suspect it is the biggest part of what has to "click." And without it, everything else in this system starts to look bad and, as Kim has said, you get some ugly looking basketball.

Great thread! Thanks for setting this up.
I think you really hit a key component on the head and that is maximum effort for 120 seconds. Almost manic in its execution, especially on the defensive end. I can somewhat envision what that looks like in a press or half court defense but what does that maximum effort look like offensively. Is that a constant motion offense? Is it five crashing the boards? The age old go quick but not fast?
The challenge here, to me, would be to get everyone moving at the same tempo in a coordinated effort. I don’t know but it does seem like it would be hard to get an offense doing that.

 

[1morevol]

Fast, quick, almost manic, I agree are instrumental in Coach's system. I would add controlled. No matter how quickly a player goes she must end up where she is supposed to be within the structure of Coach's system. Speed plus execution, now that is unbeatable.

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

I believe #3 is our weakness the most, as you mentioned as well. Especially against talented ball handlers and if a team has two of them on the court at the same time. We usually get eaten alive for the most part. Apply some pressure to get some time off the clock. But don’t get behind the ball handler and start chasing. Doesn’t end well, most of the time.

Agree which IMO makes #5 Trust and Teamwork a problem because some do not know how to play the press properly right now so the T&T part is just not there yet. Should improve with each game. Good post Retro, hope we get some good civil discussions.

 

[RetroVol]

Should we add:

6. Frequent, multi-player substitutions: The frequent and hockey-style substitutions actually are what enable many of the components of this system. In addition, this approach means more players get significant minutes in every game, even important ones. Kim has commented about how quickly this changed team cohesion once they got used to it the first year she played under this system. It also seemed to have that effect (buy-in, cohesion) last year.

 

[RetroVol]

I have updated the original post to include links to two resources on Kim's systems: the Sports Illustrated article and Cora Hall's article on analytics. I'm sure there are others out there, including videos, etc. that might be useful. Please suggest good resources and I'll add them to the original post.

 

[chuckiepoo]

I have updated the original post to include links to two resources on Kim's systems: the Sports Illustrated article and Cora Hall's article on analytics. I'm sure there are others out there, including videos, etc. that might be useful. Please suggest good resources and I'll add them to the original post.

Great adds. Bunky Harkleroad… love that first name. I grew up with a kid named Bucky. Close enough!

 

[Volfan2012]

Points I don't like are 4 and 6. Four I believe in freedom not just for some players to shoot certain shots. I totally dislike multi-frequent player subbing. I know what she says the purpose is and it just doesn't work against the elite teams. Those girls on most of those teams are trained to a fitness level that they do not get tired even playing forty minutes. I just see it as some of our players that are better being cost minutes where they could increase production. I know it can't be forty because the style is much more physically draining. I see no reason it could be 32 to 34 every game for our best five players.

 

[RetroVol]

Points I don't like are 4 and 6.

Okay, with a reference to point 6 already, and the attention (and criticism) the substitution pattern brings, I've added it to the original post.

 

[Rooster1]

Okay, with a reference to point 6 already, and the attention (and criticism) the substitution pattern brings, I've added it to the original post.

She may already be tweaking the whole substitution thing, I mean when I look at the box scores lately the top players are getting their minutes it seems.

 

[vols 30]

I love her system. Even when it looks ugly. It's entertaining to me. Women's basketball was always hard for me to watch at times, but not with Kim. I've watched almost every game since her hire, same with Pat when I had access back in the day. I bet I didnt watch 10 games total under the last 2 coaches

I really believe this year's team will be playing their best in Feb and March, and even better in the years ahead.

 

[RetroVol]

I totally dislike multi-frequent player subbing. I know what she says the purpose is and it just doesn't work against the elite teams. Those girls on most of those teams are trained to a fitness level that they do not get tired even playing forty minutes.

Hmm... I've got to question this. First, it worked for years against the best teams in Division II, even when they knew it was coming. I know, I know -- Division II. But is that endurance, or height? Is endurance even harder for bigger players?

But it also worked at Marshall. Yes, mid-major. And it worked last year for us. Even in some of the close losses, we were coming back in the fourth quarter, a point in favor of an argument that, no, at the pace Kim wants to play, even elite D1 athletes cannot sustain that effort over 38 - 40 minutes.

We haven't run teams ragged in the early part of the season this year like we did last, but I'm putting that down to execution, not strategy. Kim was very clear in today's press conference that the easy baskets we all hate have been due to execution, not an accepted weakness in the schemes the LVs run.

I'm just not sure one can drop the frequent multi-player substitutions and keep the other five components of the CKC System. I think the LVs would then just be playing the same approach as every other team. If it turns out that the "conventional wisdom" is, in fact, better, then so be it. But I think that remains to be seen. Every once in a while, a radically new approach works. Maybe this is the basketball equivalent of the Fosbury Flop.

 

[RetroVol]

I love her system. Even when it looks ugly. It's entertaining to me. Women's basketball was always hard for me to watch at times, but not with Kim. I've watched almost every game since her hire, same with Pat when I had access back in the day. I bet I didnt watch 10 games total under the last 2 coaches

Right there with you. The CKC System is both exciting to watch and intriguing for all the reasons coming up in this discussion. I'm very much hoping she achieves even 75% of the success here that she did in her previous two stops! What would that be, like an SEC Championship 3 out of every four years? Okay, I'll back up; I'd take 50%!

 

[Higbee]

Jersey brings nothing, surely Lauren could do better
That might help the system.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Jersey brings nothing, surely Lauren could do better
That might help the system.

Easy does it, boo.
I would like to see more of Lauren on the floor too but we’ll just have to trust Coach and the staff.

Woof, Lauren must be strugglin’ in practice…

 

[glv98]

I'm curious what percentage of the time the trapping press has to cause a turnover versus giving up an easy layup to be successful. I'm sure there's an analytic for that. I realize that percentage changes depending on how good the opponent is and how likely we are to simply outscore the baskets we're giving up.

I remain skeptical that there's any amount of effort or learning that can overcome the pure math of the trapping situation. The instant the opposition player is able to pass out of the trap we're fighting against the odds in a 4 on 3 situation. No amount of effort or cheetah like athleticism will allow one of the trappers to beat that pass up the floor.

It looks to me like the trappers are exerting plenty of effort in getting there and are guarding the ball handler as hard as they possibly can without fouling. Or in our case actually fouling a lot. What can they do differently? Against the most elite competition, how often is it reasonable to expect they'll take the ball away as opposed to the guard being able to find the open player?

 

[glv98]

But, overall, I think the biggest thing is #1: all-out, intensive effort each time you're on the floor, then rest, then back at it. That is different from how most players have learned to play, and I suspect it is the biggest part of what has to "click." And without it, everything else in this system starts to look bad and, as Kim has said, you get some ugly looking basketball.

I'd like to see a study on the quality of the 2 minute rest after the all out 2 minute stint, as compared to the more traditional 5 minute break after a 10 or 12 minute stretch. Does the quality of the recovery compare? Is it even possible to go as hard as humanly capable and then recover from it in two minutes and do it again? A dozen or so times a game?

We've seen that training for this incredibly demanding system is precarious They admittedly overtrained last year, causing the team to run out of gas. But may have under trained this year, as they've seemed gassed earlier. It's another way that this system seems unnecessarily difficult.

 

[Higbee]

Easy does it, boo.
I would like to see more of Lauren on the floor too but we’ll just have to trust Coach and the staff.

Woof, Lauren must be strugglin’ in practice…

Are you barking at me ?

 

[th2421]

I'm curious what percentage of the time the trapping press has to cause a turnover versus giving up an easy layup to be successful. I'm sure there's an analytic for that. I realize that percentage changes depending on how good the opponent is and how likely we are to simply outscore the baskets we're giving up.

I remain skeptical that there's any amount of effort or learning that can overcome the pure math of the trapping situation. The instant the opposition player is able to pass out of the trap we're fighting against the odds in a 4 on 3 situation. No amount of effort or cheetah like athleticism will allow one of the trappers to beat that pass up the floor.

It looks to me like the trappers are exerting plenty of effort in getting there and are guarding the ball handler as hard as they possibly can without fouling. Or in our case actually fouling a lot. What can they do differently? Against the most elite competition, how often is it reasonable to expect they'll take the ball away as opposed to the guard being able to find the open player?

I think you may be right, but I do think there is something that maybe goes beyond analytics, that even if the press and the traps aren't "working" early, eventually teams do mentally (and sometimes physically) wear down from having to figure it out again and again and again. We saw this quite a bit last season, where we gave up a ton of points and got ourselves into a deficit only to make a furious comeback in the 4th quarter - and then we'd often lose by a possession or two. It's not very fun as a fan to go through this rollercoaster but I do see the argument that the goal is to wear someone down over time, especially when you then factor in our depth.

I'm not sure how you'd measure that with analytics, I guess maybe turnovers forced for each quarter, in which case if Kim was looking to get that extra 10 points she keeps referring to, then their strategy needs to include not getting into such a deficit in quarters 1, 2, and 3. Maybe it's less trapping and more 1:1 pressure early in the game when teams are sharper, then trapping more as the game wears on.

 

[RetroVol]

I'm curious what percentage of the time the trapping press has to cause a turnover versus giving up an easy layup to be successful. I'm sure there's an analytic for that. I realize that percentage changes depending on how good the opponent is and how likely we are to simply outscore the baskets we're giving up.

I remain skeptical that there's any amount of effort or learning that can overcome the pure math of the trapping situation. The instant the opposition player is able to pass out of the trap we're fighting against the odds in a 4 on 3 situation. No amount of effort or cheetah like athleticism will allow one of the trappers to beat that pass up the floor.

Skepticism is cool -- I was a lawyer, and they're among the very most skeptical people on earth. On the other hand, I also appreciate innovation, especially when it proves the skeptics wrong. I think that the CKC System has to be treated as a system. Tinkering with one part affects all the rest. As for the press, it looks to me like they actually don't press all out all the time. I'm not knowledgeable enough to identify what they are running, but there seem to be different versions, some of which are probably not the all-out gambles. She's made it work against the best competition at D2 and has had better-than-expected success so far in D1. So, I'm going to try and keep my skepticism dialed back to just curiosity and lean into my hope that this interesting, exciting system can work for the LVs.

I'd like to see a study on the quality of the 2 minute rest after the all out 2 minute stint, as compared to the more traditional 5 minute break after a 10 or 12 minute stretch. Does the quality of the recovery compare? Is it even possible to go as hard as humanly capable and then recover from it in two minutes and do it again? A dozen or so times a game?

I suppose that would be in studies of interval training, but here again, the real answer seems to be that Kim played this system and has coached it for a decade. I suspect she could sit down and explain her thinking for every component of it in a way that would seem very reasonable to knowledgeable basketball folks. In fact, she probably had to do this to recruit her assistant coaches, and every time she recruits a player. Not to mention when she interviewed for the job.

We've seen that training for this incredibly demanding system is precarious They admittedly overtrained last year, causing the team to run out of gas. But may have under trained this year, as they've seemed gassed earlier. It's another way that this system seems unnecessarily difficult.

I just don't know what to think about that training comment. I've also heard her say she didn't try to put as much of her system in this year as last during that period. One is physical, the other is mental. I don't understand summer physical training causing a February slump. I'd think it would just build up a base of endurance. But, I can see a months-long effort to learn, master, and implement a very different system as something that could cause a let-down, especially after a big win like UCONN. The tendency to relax a little and think you're locked in would be strong in that situation. And then effort drops a little and, voila! Ugly basketball. I do know Kim has said that her National Championship team had players who had been in her system for three or four years. I also know she seems to expect players learn to self-correct, both individually and as a team, which is reminiscent of John Wooden's view of himself as a teacher and the games as a chance for players to see how well they learned. I note he was very calm on the sidelines, and Kim is fairly calm also.

 

[Rooster1]

Skepticism is cool -- I was a lawyer, and they're among the very most skeptical people on earth. On the other hand, I also appreciate innovation, especially when it proves the skeptics wrong. I think that the CKC System has to be treated as a system. Tinkering with one part affects all the rest. As for the press, it looks to me like they actually don't press all out all the time. I'm not knowledgeable enough to identify what they are running, but there seem to be different versions, some of which are probably not the all-out gambles. She's made it work against the best competition at D2 and has had better-than-expected success so far in D1. So, I'm going to try and keep my skepticism dialed back to just curiosity and lean into my hope that this interesting, exciting system can work for the LVs.



I suppose that would be in studies of interval training, but here again, the real answer seems to be that Kim played this system and has coached it for a decade. I suspect she could sit down and explain her thinking for every component of it in a way that would seem very reasonable to knowledgeable basketball folks. In fact, she probably had to do this to recruit her assistant coaches, and every time she recruits a player. Not to mention when she interviewed for the job.



I just don't know what to think about that training comment. I've also heard her say she didn't try to put as much of her system in this year as last during that period. One is physical, the other is mental. I don't understand summer physical training causing a February slump. I'd think it would just build up a base of endurance. But, I can see a months-long effort to learn, master, and implement a very different system as something that could cause a let-down, especially after a big win like UCONN. The tendency to relax a little and think you're locked in would be strong in that situation. And then effort drops a little and, voila! Ugly basketball. I do know Kim has said that her National Championship team had players who had been in her system for three or four years. I also know she seems to expect players learn to self-correct, both individually and as a team, which is reminiscent of John Wooden's view of himself as a teacher and the games as a chance for players to see how well they learned. I note he was very calm on the sidelines, and Kim is fairly calm also.

Best post I’ve read in a while, well thought out and written.