Suns vs Lakers series thread

#127
#127
Unimane said:
When did I argue any of that?
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you didn't. You argued against the idea that Nash is part of his teams' losing problem. His offensive game is fantastic and entertaining (as long as the carry is vogue and allowed), but his teams would be better served by a decent PG who could defend on about 1 out of 3 trips.
 
#129
#129
BigPapaVol said:
you didn't. You argued against the idea that Nash is part of his teams' losing problem. His offensive game is fantastic and entertaining (as long as the carry is vogue and allowed), but his teams would be better served by a decent PG who could defend on about 1 out of 3 trips.
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Phil?
 
#133
#133
hatvol96 said:
Nash is nothing but an overhyped career loser worshipped by the pasty white media who hate the fact there aren't more guys who look like them in the NBA. Another year, another year his team isn't winning a damn thing. Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing get killed for having never won a title. How many have Nash or Nowitzki won? Yet, you don't see the Bob Ryans and Mike Lupicas of the world talking about their careers being failures. Can't imagine why that is. That's why tonight was so awesoome. Nash's year crushed by the poster boy for all the evils middle America sees in the NBA, Ron Artest. The only way it would have been better would have been if Artest had gone over and gone Kermit Washington on Jeremy Piven.
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He may be overhyped, but how is any of that his fault. Should he give back his MVP trophies? Nash's defense is the reason his teams don't ever win it all, but it also doesn't help that the other all-star on his team plays worse defense than him. Since the MVP is given out before the playoffs i believe Nash earned it both times and could have warrented winning it a third the following year (although the competition was weak those years). Last night's second half was a good example of how great of a player he is coming off those pick and rolls and doing just about whatever he chose all at the age of 36.
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#135
#135
BigPapaVol said:
you didn't. You argued against the idea that Nash is part of his teams' losing problem. His offensive game is fantastic and entertaining (as long as the carry is vogue and allowed), but his teams would be better served by a decent PG who could defend on about 1 out of 3 trips.
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Nowhere did I argue this, either. I argued against him being an "overhyped loser" and "trash" and said his performance the time I saw him in person was as impressive as any I've seen. I never said he was Joe Dumars, nor would I take Nash over John Stockton.
 
#136
#136
BigPapaVol said:
you forgot to mention that every guard in the league loves to see him on defense, or did I miss that? His team is now playing a zone because he can't even guard the sorry points that the Lakers throw out there. He's a great offensive player, but arguing that his defensive issues aren't at the root of his teams never getting anywhere, though loaded with talent, is just wrong.
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It's true that his lack of defense factors in to them playing a zone, but the zone has been implement more so because they want the Lakers ie Ron Artest to hoist up those 3 point shots which they did so often in games 3 and 4. Derek Fisher is putting up bigger numbers, but that's what he does in the playoffs regardless of who defense him.
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#137
#137
hatvol96 said:
Nash is nothing but an overhyped career loser worshipped by the pasty white media who hate the fact there aren't more guys who look like them in the NBA. Another year, another year his team isn't winning a damn thing. Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing get killed for having never won a title. How many have Nash or Nowitzki won? Yet, you don't see the Bob Ryans and Mike Lupicas of the world talking about their careers being failures. Can't imagine why that is. That's why tonight was so awesoome. Nash's year crushed by the poster boy for all the evils middle America sees in the NBA, Ron Artest. The only way it would have been better would have been if Artest had gone over and gone Kermit Washington on Jeremy Piven.
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..and why does all this make him trash?
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#138
#138
BigPapaVol said:
I don't see it. Perkins being thrown out was a big deal the other night and 3 balls don't win game 7s.
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Teams on their heels do lose Game 7s. Plus, Perkins wasn't doing a whole lot in Game 4 when Howard lit him up for 32 and Davis having a concussion is as big as Perkins getting kicked out.

I also remember this Celtics-Magic Game 7 scenario playing out last year. The Magic hit 13-21 3s in Game 7 of the Conference Semis.
 
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#139
#139
Unimane said:
Teams on their heels do lose Game 7s. Plus, Perkins wasn't doing a whole lot in Game 4 when Howard lit him up for 32 and Davis having a concussion is as big as Perkins getting kicked out.

I also remember this Celtics-Magic Game 7 scenario playing out last year. The Magic hit 13-21 3s in Game 7 of the Conference Semis.
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Davis was lost late, Perkins wasn't and Davis is about 1/50th the defender. Davis plays because he is a respectable jumpshooter. Wallace being gimpy and in foul trouble atop the silly toss of Perkins was a much, much bigger deal. Amazing that the most foul prone guy in the NBA has magically avoided the whistle, no?

The on the heels thing is over the top. Orlando was as "on their heels" as humanly possible just two games ago, but has had some success when they have found themselves with nothing to lose and some reasonably helpful officiating.

You really expect threes to drag a team again in a game 7? First, you don't expect another win in Boston, do you?
 
#140
#140
Unimane said:
Nowhere did I argue this, either. I argued against him being an "overhyped loser" and "trash" and said his performance the time I saw him in person was as impressive as any I've seen. I never said he was Joe Dumars, nor would I take Nash over John Stockton.
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got it. I took your retort full of bile as offended that he would be lumped into the losing problems that Dallas and Phoenix have had. He's definitely a part of the problem.
 
#141
#141
ttrogvol said:
It's true that his lack of defense factors in to them playing a zone, but the zone has been implement more so because they want the Lakers ie Ron Artest to hoist up those 3 point shots which they did so often in games 3 and 4. Derek Fisher is putting up bigger numbers, but that's what he does in the playoffs regardless of who defense him.
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So, Phoenix is zoning because of Artest? Tough to buy since they stay in it when he's on the bench.
 
#142
#142
BigPapaVol said:
Davis was lost late, Perkins wasn't and Davis is about 1/50th the defender. Davis plays because he is a respectable jumpshooter. Wallace being gimpy and in foul trouble atop the silly toss of Perkins was a much, much bigger deal. Amazing that the most foul prone guy in the NBA has magically avoided the whistle, no?

The on the heels thing is over the top. Orlando was as "on their heels" as humanly possible just two games ago, but has had some success when they have found themselves with nothing to lose and some reasonably helpful officiating.

You really expect threes to drag a team again in a game 7? First, you don't expect another win in Boston, do you?
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No, I don't expect a win in Boston, but to say that a team can't get hot from three for one game, especially when that team rode that wave last year to the Finals, isn't fully true.

Officiating is so subjective and the safe refuge for any lost or problematic argument that I don't even bother with it.

I also said that Davis is, not was a problem because the Celtics lose a body to throw at Howard.
 
#143
#143
BigPapaVol said:
got it. I took your retort full of bile as offended that he would be lumped into the losing problems that Dallas and Phoenix have had. He's definitely a part of the problem.
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Yeah, I think we're closer here than you first though, as you say.

I do admit, Nash has always been one of my favorites (Lupica's arguments notwithstanding) and have enjoyed his play. I would love for him to win a title, but realize his defensive "prowess" has inhibited him greatly.
 
#144
#144
Unimane said:
No, I don't expect a win in Boston, but to say that a team can't get hot from three for one game, especially when that team rode that wave last year to the Finals, isn't fully true.

Officiating is so subjective and the safe refuge for any lost or problematic argument that I don't even bother with it.

I also said that Davis is, not was a problem because the Celtics lose a body to throw at Howard.
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They can get hot, but I like the odds of any team opposing a three point outfit in a game 7.

Officiating is my argument because I'm lost? Brilliant. Acting as if the officiating shift hasn't been apparent since the 3-0 is as problematic as anything I can imagine. It has won for Phoenix and Orlando and means much more money for the NBA. There has been a clear shift. I'm not blaming it, but it's a reality of NBA ball. It's exactly why the home court is so important.

Davis is only a problem on the defensive end to the extent that Wallace and Perkins are useless and Garnett is unwilling. I think defending Howard means far less in this series than does defending the 3. Let Howard do his and close off the three. Orlando doesn't have a whole lot to beat people to the paint, unless Rondo is in foul trouble again, which amazingly, he was two nights ago.
 
#145
#145
BigPapaVol said:
They can get hot, but I like the odds of any team opposing a three point outfit in a game 7.

Officiating is my argument because I'm lost? Brilliant. Acting as if the officiating shift hasn't been apparent since the 3-0 is as problematic as anything I can imagine. It has won for Phoenix and Orlando and means much more money for the NBA. There has been a clear shift. I'm not blaming it, but it's a reality of NBA ball. It's exactly why the home court is so important.

Davis is only a problem on the defensive end to the extent that Wallace and Perkins are useless and Garnett is unwilling. I think defending Howard means far less in this series than does defending the 3. Let Howard do his and close off the three. Orlando doesn't have a whole lot to beat people to the paint, unless Rondo is in foul trouble again, which amazingly, he was two nights ago.
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Like I said, arguing officiating is pointless because of its subjective nature and I don't even bother with it anymore. And, yes, you know it as well as I do that blaming officiating is a convenience.

Otherwise, the Celtics are letting Nelson get into the lane, which is throwing their defense into disarray.
 
#146
#146
Unimane said:
Like I said, arguing officiating is pointless because of its subjective nature and I don't even bother with it anymore. And, yes, you know it as well as I do that blaming officiating is a convenience.

Otherwise, the Celtics are letting Nelson get into the lane, which is throwing their defense into disarray.
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It's not a convenience, it's reality. Otherwise, Home vs. Away FT disparity is simply uncanny. I'm not arguing it. I'm simply stating a fact. The subjective nature of it is what allows it to be so "uncanny."

I think you'll see a shift toward keeping Nelson out of the lane and Rondo won't get into ticky tacky foul trouble in Boston.
 
#147
#147
BigPapaVol said:
So, Phoenix is zoning because of Artest? Tough to buy since they stay in it when he's on the bench.
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No, I said they zone because they'd rather the Lakers continue to hoist up and miss 3's. I just cited Artest as an example of a player who they want to take shots.
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#148
#148
BigPapaVol said:
you forgot to mention that every guard in the league loves to see him on defense, or did I miss that? His team is now playing a zone because he can't even guard the sorry points that the Lakers throw out there. He's a great offensive player, but arguing that his defensive issues aren't at the root of his teams never getting anywhere, though loaded with talent, is just wrong.
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That isn't why they are running zone and you know it.
 
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