Recruiting Forum Off Topic Thread III

[Bassmaster_Vol]

If our soldiers kill women and children, we do call it murder. Plenty of empires have spread with needing to try and eradicate every single living person from every town or city who opposes them.

Historically, when we look ar past societies we tend to grade them on a curve morally. The Persians were downright humane compared to a lot of their Mesopotamian precursors. But if we judged them by today’s standards, they all seem like total ignorant, bigoted, closed minded bastards. When we look at past societies, to a certain extent we just have to accept that values, morals, and progress of accumulated human knowledge were different in pst times.


But there’s no way of really justifying those genocides if you’re arguing for a universal good and evil.



Values have been in constant flux, though. How societies define murder has slowly broadened over time. At times it was only murder if it was the people in your own community. At times only if it was people of your own state or race. It’s been far from constant.

Yes, people corrupt morality because we are sinners. But notice that we just know innately that murder is wrong. We do, because there is a standard. If there is no standard then murder is not wrong, it is not evil, because there is no evil. It is all my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[bignewt]

No, it has to do with the fact that Christianity is not a religion of revolution. We are not going to overthrow governments as I said yesterday. the Bible commands that we obey the laws of the land.

Now, it also says unless they command us to do something against God's word, as the Apostles demonstrate in the book of Acts. At that point we would have to say no and face the consequences. If my government commanded me to slaughter innocents then I would not do it and would have to face death myself.

I'm not going to comment on the Vietnam war because I just don't know enough to present any sort of position accurately.

Only reason I mention Vietnam is it is the perfect example of a "Christian government" being 100% in the WRONG and killing when it had zero moral ground to do so.

 

[bignewt]

Yes, people corrupt morality because we are sinners. But notice that we just know innately that murder is wrong. We do, because there is a standard. If there is no standard then murder is not wrong, it is not evil, because there is no evil. It is all my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

We know that murder is wrong because it is permanently ending a person's life and we know that if someone kills us it will end ours. Not because of the ten commandments. Man knew murder was wrong before the tablet came down from the mountain. They just found justifications for it.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Only reason I mention Vietnam is it is the perfect example of a "Christian government" being 100% in the WRONG and killing when it had zero moral ground to do so.

We are not a Christian government and never have been. A Christian government has only existed at one point in history, and that was the Theocracy of Israel, even though it wouldn't have been called Christian because the word Christian was not given until the city of Antioch used it in the book of Acts.

But again, this isn't a refutation of anything I have said. Men do often do corrupt and evil things. But you can call this wrong, but unless there is a God, you cannot tell me why its wrong, except that in your opinion it is wrong. Well, in their opinion it was right. So how is your opinion more valuable than theirs? You may think so because it is your opinion, but that doesn't make it true. Without an objective standard we cannot call anything truly evil or anything truly good. We have to say, as Silverman did, in my opinion, or to me, that was wrong. I think that is patently absurd. Evil is evil and good is good because there is a standard.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

We know that murder is wrong because it is permanently ending a person's life and we know that if someone kills us it will end ours. Not because of the ten commandments. Man knew murder was wrong before the tablet came down from the mountain. They just found justifications for it.

Notice that I have not mentioned the 10 commandments. I am not saying that we know what is wrong because God told us, even though this is true of course. But our discussion has to do with worldview. Why is there a right and wrong? Because there is a standard: God. Without God there is no standard. Why is it wrong to permanently end a person's life in an atheistic, evolutionary worldview? It may be wrong to you, but why does that make it wrong? To someone else it isn't wrong, why is your opinion more valuable than theirs?

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Yes, people corrupt morality because we are sinners. But notice that we just know innately that murder is wrong. We do, because there is a standard. If there is no standard then murder is not wrong, it is not evil, because there is no evil. It is all my opinion, nothing more and nothing less.

People don’t want to be murdered. Killing things in general is difficult for people to do (especially if you take guns out of the equation) until they’ve been desensitized to it to some extent. If cows and pigs could speak and beg for their lives like humans, there would probably be a pretty common aversion to killing them.



All that aside though, you literally just outlined a situation in which you would feel no moral qualms with killing someone based upon your interpretation of a bible verse that in addition to a time when you believed genocide to not be immoral and not qualify as murder.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

Notice that I have not mentioned the 10 commandments. I am not saying that we know what is wrong because God told us, even though this is true of course. But our discussion has to do with worldview. Why is there a right and wrong? Because there is a standard: God. Without God there is no standard. Why is it wrong to permanently end a person's life in an atheistic, evolutionary worldview? It may be wrong to you, but why does that make it wrong? To someone else it isn't wrong, why is your opinion more valuable than theirs?

I have a moral compass, which is what guides all of us, god or no god. When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad.

My idea of good and bad is different from many others, sure; but, we live in a civilized democracy. The majority opinion is supposed to rule. Fortunately, against the commands of the bible, women have equal rights, slavery is now illegal, etc. This is all because the majority of the country came to a concensus.

Look at Thoms Jefferson, the most important IMO forefather of our country. He, an agnostic, laid the foundation ti a great nation. We, on the other hand, have not stayed the path.

Additionally, humans killing one another isn't good, from an evolutionary standpoint, for the survival of the species. This isn't unique to humans, but it is very common among most all animal species.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

But again, this isn't a refutation of anything I have said. Men do often do corrupt and evil things. But you can call this wrong, but unless there is a God, you cannot tell me why its wrong, except that in your opinion it is wrong. Well, in their opinion it was right. So how is your opinion more valuable than theirs? You may think so because it is your opinion, but that doesn't make it true. Without an objective standard we cannot call anything truly evil or anything truly good. We have to say, as Silverman did, in my opinion, or to me, that was wrong. I think that is patently absurd. Evil is evil and good is good because there is a standard.

I just don’t get the hang up on this, especially when it’s something where people generally reach the same conclusions, like murder.

Why the need to feel cosmically justified in your conclusion that killing someone is a f***ed up thing to do?

 

[Sleegro]

So a religion that has Christ as God and a religion that doesn't have Christ as God are worshipping the same God?

Isn't Christ the Son of God, or God in human form? God revealing himself to humanity, to oversimplify the idea of the Holy Trinity being one entity, God? So Islam and Judaism don't believe that part, but they do worship the same God. They all worship the God that Abraham told about.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

All that aside though, you literally just outlined a situation in which you would feel no moral qualms with killing someone based upon your interpretation of a bible verse that in addition to a time when you believed genocide to not be immoral and not qualify as murder.

We don't have to talk about murder. We can talk about lying, stealing, cheating, extortion, or any other thing you can think. What makes it wrong? Why is it wrong to do it.

Uh, no I did not do as you said in your second paragraph. You can claim that if you want, and if you want to it would once again demonstrate that you do not care what is being said. Maybe Ziti is right and you just want to belittle. My point is, as it has been, that without God there is no "why." There is no reason to say that anything is wrong. What makes it right and what makes it wrong? If it is just opinion, then opinions vary from person to person and culture to culture, and you could never accuse someone of being genuinely evil or good. It would just be your opinion.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

I just don’t get the hang up on this, especially when it’s something where people generally reach the same conclusions, like murder.

Why the need to feel cosmically justified in your conclusion that killing someone is a f***ed up thing to do?

Some people just need a book to tell them not to kill other people... let's just hope they don't stumble upon The Catcher in the Rye lol

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Why the need to feel cosmically justified in your conclusion that killing someone is a f***ed up thing to do?

Here is more evidence that you have now left the area of having thoughtful discussion. With that, our conversation is over.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Isn't Christ the Son of God, or God in human form? God revealing himself to humanity, to oversimplify the idea of the Holy Trinity being one entity, God? So Islam and Judaism don't believe that part, but they do worship the same God. They all worship the God that Abraham told about.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. So the God that Abraham told about is the Triune God of Scripture. Yes, Jesus is God. If you deny that Jesus is God, we do not worship the same God.

 

[VolGee4]

I have a moral compass, which is what guides all of us, god or no god. When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad.

My idea of good and bad is different from many others, sure; but, we live in a civilized democracy. The majority opinion is supposed to rule. Fortunately, against the commands of the bible, women have equal rights, slavery is now illegal, etc. This is all because the majority of the country came to a concensus.

Look at Thoms Jefferson, the most important IMO forefather of our country. He, an agnostic, laid the foundation ti a great nation. We, on the other hand, have not stayed the path.

Additionally, humans killing one another isn't good, from an evolutionary standpoint, for the survival of the species. This isn't unique to humans, but it is very common among most all animal species.

Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. He believed in a God that created the universe. He didn't totally side with Christianity, but he did admire Jesus for his moral teachings. I believe he even wrote a book about it.

 

[jakez4ut]

So a religion that has Christ as God and a religion that doesn't have Christ as God are worshipping the same God?

sure. could be. depending on your point of view. it's a given that is not your point of view. it's also a given that you believe there is not, nor should there be, another point of view.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. He believed in a God that created the universe. He didn't totally side with Christianity, but he did admire Jesus for his moral teachings. I believe he even wrote a book about it.

My bad, as you are correct about him being a deist.

I, too, admire the teachings of Jesus Christ. The world needs more compassion, empathy, and unconditional love.

 

[butchna]

This board can’t even fix a football program...but wants to tackle our Creator? Stay away from my Jesus! :aggressive:

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

My bad, as you are correct about him being a deist.

I, too, admire the teachings of Jesus Christ. The world needs more compassion, empathy, and unconditional love.

You admire the teachings of a Man who claimed to be God in flesh, claimed that He was the only way of access to the Father who is in heaven, and that if anyone doesn't believe Him that they will be condemned to hell for all eternity?

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

sure. could be. depending on your point of view. it's a given that is not your point of view. it's also a given that you believe there is not, nor should there be, another point of view.

I'll never understand how a complete contradiction can be said to be the same.

But no, there should not be another point of view because there is only one truth.

 

[Ron Swanson]

You admire the teachings of a Man who claimed to be God in flesh, claimed that He was the only way of access to the Father who is in heaven, and that if anyone doesn't believe Him that they will be condemned to hell for all eternity?

No, of course not. And why you? The man you're describing sounds like a delusional ahole.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

No, of course not. And why you? The man you're describing sounds like a delusional *******.

Unless He's telling the truth as confirmed by His resurrection. He is either "a liar, a lunatic, or Lord" -C.S. Lewis.

You can't say that you don't believe what He said and then say that you admire Him as a teacher. If He wasn't telling the truth He was either a liar or a lunatic, not someone to be admired.

 

[Chief Vol 13]

I am open-minded about most things. If I find the time, I will look him up.

If you do, I'd be curious to get your thoughts

 

[roosterjbh]

No, of course not. And why you? The man you're describing sounds like a delusional ahole.

Add enough time to a cult and it becomes an accepted religion

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

You admire the teachings of a Man who claimed to be God in flesh, claimed that He was the only way of access to the Father who is in heaven, and that if anyone doesn't believe Him that they will be condemned to hell for all eternity?

Isn't he the one that offered eternal salvation to all of the humans that aren't worthy of it otherwise?

Newsflash, I admire and love many Christians as well, including my mother, in-laws, aunts, granparents, etc.

Not sure why my statement warranted such a knee jerk response?

 

[Catbone]

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