Recruiting Forum Off Topic Thread III

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Would you be a conscientious objector if there was a war? If god told you to kill someone, would you?

First, God would never tell me to kill someone. The canon is closed. God has spoken, He will not speak again. Anyone who claims that God told them to kill someone is a liar. God spoke through His apostles and prophets and He confirmed their word through signs and wonders. He isn't speaking through billy bob who decides to go on a shooting rampage.

No, I would not be a conscientious objector. the Bible also teaches that God has ordained governments and that we should submit to them. He even says in Romans 13 that they do not carry the sword for nothing. In other words, God uses governmental law to carry out judgment and discipline in the world. So I would have no reason to be a conscientious objector.

Now if it was something unjust, like being ordered to murder innocent people or something like that, I would not do it.

 

[jakez4ut]

With all of what you just said here, it seems like the important part is worshiping God. Can you get morality through worshiping God in any religion? Even Star Wars nerds can find morality in The Force. In Christianity, isn't there only one God? So at the very least, all monotheistic religions are worshiping the same God? They just have different ways of doing it, usually because of origins in different regions and cultures in the world. But the base message about morality in pretty much every religion almost always comes down to the golden rule. Otherwise, if that is not the case, and other religions are worshiping another God, then Christianity is really a polytheistic religion who focuses their worship on one God of many perceived "lesser gods".

excellent points, and that's the rub for Christians. the other religions are not worshiping the one true God, as defined in Christianity. hence the missionary stance on spreading the word, and being obliged to tell others following another faith, they're wrong, and in need of saving.

i tend to think more like the bolded part. i think it's incredibly arrogant to think our way is the ONLY way, cause as you said, many of the teachings of most faith based religion, boil down to similar base principles. so either Man made those up, or they're directed by one Creator of All.

all i know is the poop is going to hit the fan when the aliens show up.

 

[bignewt]

You feel Him because He is your creator.

A lot of people have this second objection and I feel the weight of it for sure. But it is more than just not accepting His Son. It has to do with who God is. God is holy. We do not fully understand holiness because we have never seen or experienced it. But God is Qadosh or altogether separate from us. He is holy and because He is holy He must punish sins. No one would describe a judge as being righteous if he knowingly let a criminal go free. In fact they would want him to be disbarred. God cannot simply overlook sin or He would not be holy. His character demands the punishment of sin. This is the teaching of the Bible. This is why Christ had to come. This is the gospel message. Sin deserves punishment and so Christ came as a "propitiation for our sins." Propitiation means "to satisfy or appease." Christ's death on the cross satisfied God's holy wrath against sin. In other words, Christ endured the punishment that we deserve on the cross. Christ took the punishment so that you and I, if we trust in Him through faith, would not have to. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). The punishment has been paid and God offers it as a free gift. Believe in Christ and you have nothing to worry about. Not only are you forgiven of your sins and saved from the judgment that is to come, but you are actually adopted into the family of God (1st John 3:1-3), you become a son, and an heir of an inheritance. God actually rewards you as though you lived the life of Christ. This is the greatness of the gospel.

Hell is reality, judgment is real, but salvation is offered freely to any who would receive it through faith.

Its a contradiction to say "we cannot know God's reasons" and then say "to know God be saved." The bottom line is by your argument be saved or go to hell. I simply cannot fathom a black and white world. Billions of people are raised in cultures where they never have a REAL chance to be saved and this has been true for thousands of years. I know you make sense of it through faith and scripture. I can't. I believe in a higher power but the afterlife is a huge question mark. Whatever it is, the truth is we cannot truly know it. Only through faith. Therefore I will live the best life I can and believe in a God that gives his children a fair shake and if they get born as a starving child in Africa or a life as a sex slave in Thailand there is a reason why.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I thought that we were having a thoughtful and respectful discussion? Lets not start throwing out the "hiding behind" jabs now. But no, I did not say "that was the OT." I said that was under a theocracy which is different than what we are living under now as the NT makes clear. Has nothing to do with changing morality. God was taking His people into the promise land and the people that Israel encountered wanted to kill them. They were evil people and God, who is perfect in righteousness judged them through the Israelites. That is His prerogative and not ours. We do not live in a theocracy now, nor are we gaining entrance into a promised land in this world. This is why context is of extreme importance.

From the standpoint of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs, you’re simultaneously arguing that murder is always evil and that murder was fine this time because your god made an exception. That’s all a defense of those acts can come down to.

I’m not sure how it being a theocracy changes much about that. There have been plenty of theocracies thoughout history.

I'm sorry, but evil is not just opinion. It is reality.

That’s your opinion, and it’s unproveable. If you’d been born in a different society or time, your views on what is universally good or evil would likely differ from what they are now.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

excellent points, and that's the rub for Christians. the other religions are not worshiping the one true God, as defined in Christianity. hence the missionary stance on spreading the word, and being obliged to tell others following another faith, they're wrong, and in need of saving.

i tend to think more like the bolded part. i think it's incredibly arrogant to think our way is the ONLY way, cause as you said, many of the teachings of most faith based religion, boil down to similar base principles. so either Man made those up, or they're directed by one Creator of All.

all i know is the poop is going to hit the fan when the aliens show up.

So Christians believe that Christ is God, the second Person of the Trinity. That He was born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead and was therefore exalted to the right hand of God where He now makes intercession for us. Christ is the central message of the entire Bible, from beginning to end, it is about Him.

Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and only a prophet. They deny the Trinity. They deny that Jesus was crucified and certainly deny that He rose from the dead. Muhammad is a greater prophet than Jesus was in Islam.

Are Allah and the Christian God the same? You can only say yes if you ignore the absolute contradictory positions I have just laid out.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Its a contradiction to say "we cannot know God's reasons" and then say "to know God be saved." The bottom line is by your argument be saved or go to hell. I simply cannot fathom a black and white world. Billions of people are raised in cultures where they never have a REAL chance to be saved and this has been true for thousands of years. I know you make sense of it through faith and scripture. I can't. I believe in a higher power but the afterlife is a huge question mark. Whatever it is, the truth is we cannot truly know it. Only through faith. Therefore I will live the best life I can and believe in a God that gives his children a fair shake and if they get born as a starving child in Africa or a life as a sex slave in Thailand there is a reason why.

I don't remember saying "we cannot know God's reasons" in this particular context. But I understand what you are saying. These are difficult questions, of course, the Bible does provide answers to them as Romans 1 says that men, even in cultures who have never heard the gospel, are without excuse for General revelation testifies to the reality of God. I also believe that if someone in these cultures desired to know God and be saved that God would, in His grace, draw them out and save them. It has happened before.

And yes, there is a reason. I believe that there is a reason for every single thing that happens in this life, even this conversation that you and I are having now because I believe that God is sovereign over all things.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

From the standpoint of someone who doesn’t share your beliefs, you’re simultaneously arguing that murder is always evil and that murder was fine this time because your god made an exception. That’s all a defense of those acts can come down to.

I’m not sure how it being a theocracy changes much about that. There have been plenty of theocracies thoughout history.



That’s your opinion, and it’s unproveable. If you’d been born in a different society or time, your views on what is universally good or evil would likely differ from what they are now.

I disagree with this entire post. American's go to war, we don't call it murder. Under the theocracy of the OT they went to war, wasn't murder.

And not it is not unprovable. The very fact that we have moral values proves that there is a standard. We know that murder is wrong, it is always wrong, no matter what someone may claim. Why is that universal? Because there is a standard, an objective standard. It is not subjective.

 

[jakez4ut]

So Christians believe that Christ is God, the second Person of the Trinity. That He was born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead and was therefore exalted to the right hand of God where He now makes intercession for us. Christ is the central message of the entire Bible, from beginning to end, it is about Him.

Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and only a prophet. They deny the Trinity. They deny that Jesus was crucified and certainly deny that He rose from the dead. Muhammad is a greater prophet than Jesus was in Islam.

Are Allah and the Christian God the same? You can only say yes if you ignore the absolute contradictory positions I have just laid out.

i think it's a valid question.
if you only accept the christian point of view, as you do, then it is a contradiction. and i get that, and in a way, accept it.

but just as i say that, there's a person in Islam that does the same from their perspective, as you laid out.

i would ask, couldn't Muhammed and Jesus both be of the same God? and that it's man's interpretation of their teachings that screwed things up?

you have the bible beater one side, a radical holding the Koran on the other.

neither necessarily willing to acknowledge the similarities of the two, rather, only focusing on the differences, and excluding one another from 'truly being saved' by either's definition of it.

i think God, as a reality or a concept, is just bigger than that...or He should be. common ground is something that humans suck at finding, be it political or religious, and it's that failure that has led to most of the issues our world has today, and has had over it's history.

and that same failure is being played out in this thread, just a tad more civilly.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

How about I tell children, as evolutionists do, that they are nothing more than animals with no transcendent value, no standard of morality, an no purpose in life.

You're worried about the possibility of me telling them that the earth is young when the secular, evolutionary world is telling them that?

What a drama queen

 

[bignewt]

I disagree with this entire post. American's go to war, we don't call it murder. Under the theocracy of the OT they went to war, wasn't murder.

And not it is not unprovable. The very fact that we have moral values proves that there is a standard. We know that murder is wrong, it is always wrong, no matter what someone may claim. Why is that universal? Because there is a standard, an objective standard. It is not subjective.

Every single person killed in Vietnam was murder. Your government sanctioned it and a lot of our best went there to die or come back completely damaged. I have little faith in our government, it is man-made, evil and totally corrupt. The bible saying obey your government since we have "In God we trust" on our money? Ridiculous and wrong.

 

[BennesseeVols]

So you have no more value than a cow then? Or a pig? Or even a rat?

Does a cow have more value than an ant? Yes. Do most humans have more value than a cow? Yes. Still all animals.

 

[bignewt]

I don't remember saying "we cannot know God's reasons" in this particular context. But I understand what you are saying. These are difficult questions, of course, the Bible does provide answers to them as Romans 1 says that men, even in cultures who have never heard the gospel, are without excuse for General revelation testifies to the reality of God. I also believe that if someone in these cultures desired to know God and be saved that God would, in His grace, draw them out and save them. It has happened before.

And yes, there is a reason. I believe that there is a reason for every single thing that happens in this life, even this conversation that you and I are having now because I believe that God is sovereign over all things.

We do not fully understand holiness because we have never seen or experienced it. But God is Qadosh or altogether separate from us.

your words.

 

[BigZiti09]

The bible saying obey your government since we have "In God we trust" on our money? Ridiculous and wrong.

Huh?

 

[bignewt]

Huh?

Drawn from Bass:

the Bible also teaches that God has ordained governments and that we should submit to them. He even says in Romans 13 that they do not carry the sword for nothing.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Every single person killed in Vietnam was murder. Your government sanctioned it and a lot of our best went there to die or come back completely damaged. I have little faith in our government, it is man-made, evil and totally corrupt. The bible saying obey your government since we have "In God we trust" on our money? Ridiculous and wrong.

No, it has to do with the fact that Christianity is not a religion of revolution. We are not going to overthrow governments as I said yesterday. the Bible commands that we obey the laws of the land.

Now, it also says unless they command us to do something against God's word, as the Apostles demonstrate in the book of Acts. At that point we would have to say no and face the consequences. If my government commanded me to slaughter innocents then I would not do it and would have to face death myself.

I'm not going to comment on the Vietnam war because I just don't know enough to present any sort of position accurately.

 

[Glitch]

There have been many societies throughout history without God that have sustained themselves for hundreds of years.

I never said they would fail immediately. However, societies begin to deteriorate when corruption and lack of moral standards begin to creep in. If we base our society on God and His teachings, then we would not tolerate corruption or a lack of morals. However, when humans begin to think that we can decide better than God what is moral and right, we see the corruption and degradation of our moral standards.

Here is an example and without any political bent one way or another being implied:

LT GEN Mike Flynn - faithfully served our nation for 33 years and was among the most well respected people in the nation. Interviewed by the Special Counsel and makes a misstatement about when and what was discussed with Russian officials and is charged with perjury and forced to plead guilty and resign in disgrace.

Hillary Clinton - easily one of the most polarizing individuals in our nation today. Been involved or near multiple scandals over multiple decades. Interviewed by the Director of the FBI about using a non-approved private e-mail server to send and store multiple classified and top secret documents. Fails to cooperate with the investigation by having the above servers wiped clean and plays ignorant about the situation. The FBI and DOJ find no reason to prosecute or charge her with perjury, obstruction of justice, or any other crime that multiple military members have been charged with for much less when it comes to the handling of classified documents.

This is simple corruption and degradation of morality at its root. If we are not all held to the same standard then the rule of law will continue to break down and our society will continue to crumble further into moral decay. God gives us a standard and states that we should all be held to it. It is not God's fault that we allow our failings as humans to ruin what He set up and wants for us.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

We do not fully understand holiness because we have never seen or experienced it. But God is Qadosh or altogether separate from us.

your words.

I didn't say we don't know Gods reasons. I said we cannot fathom God's holiness. And we can't because we are not holy and have never seen God in His holiness. It is not the same thing.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

Me being alive is pretty amazing, life in general is amazing, you're right. IMO, if "God" did all of this that god is very different than what most people believe. The Bible, all it's teachings, etc are just made up by man. In my little brain it seems insane to think that a god who made the world, stars, galaxies, and everything beyond had anything to do with the Bible or any other religion on earth. Our wonderful planet is just a tiny spec of dust in the grand scheme of it all. We're all very lucky to be here and I'm grateful for my life.

We are tiny beings on a speck orbiting a speck within a very small solar system, all within the Milky Way galaxy. There are 100 to 200 billion other galaxies in our constantly expanding universe.

But you shouldn't touch yourself at night.

 

[Sleegro]

So Christians believe that Christ is God, the second Person of the Trinity. That He was born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead and was therefore exalted to the right hand of God where He now makes intercession for us. Christ is the central message of the entire Bible, from beginning to end, it is about Him.

Muslims believe that Christ was simply a man and only a prophet. They deny the Trinity. They deny that Jesus was crucified and certainly deny that He rose from the dead. Muhammad is a greater prophet than Jesus was in Islam.

Are Allah and the Christian God the same? You can only say yes if you ignore the absolute contradictory positions I have just laid out.

Islam Christianity and Judaism are all religions based on the stories of Abraham. So yes I'd say they are worshipping the same God. And they are all teaching the same base morality. They have different interpretations of some of the other parts.

 

[bignewt]

I didn't say we don't know Gods reasons. I said we cannot fathom God's holiness. And we can't because we are not holy and have never seen God in His holiness. It is not the same thing.

Sounds the same to me.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I disagree with this entire post. American's go to war, we don't call it murder. Under the theocracy of the OT they went to war, wasn't murder.

If our soldiers kill women and children, we do call it murder. Plenty of empires have spread with needing to try and eradicate every single living person from every town or city who opposes them.

Historically, when we look ar past societies we tend to grade them on a curve morally. The Persians were downright humane compared to a lot of their Mesopotamian precursors. But if we judged them by today’s standards, they all seem like total ignorant, bigoted, closed minded bastards. When we look at past societies, to a certain extent we just have to accept that values, morals, and progress of accumulated human knowledge were different in pst times.


But there’s no way of really justifying those genocides if you’re arguing for a universal good and evil.

And not it is not unprovable. The very fact that we have moral values proves that there is a standard. We know that murder is wrong, it is always wrong, no matter what someone may claim. Why is that universal? Because there is a standard, an objective standard. It is not subjective.

Values have been in constant flux, though. How societies define murder has slowly broadened over time. At times it was only murder if it was the people in your own community. At times only if it was people of your own state or race. It’s been far from constant.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

I didn't say we don't know Gods reasons. I said we cannot fathom God's holiness. And we can't because we are not holy and have never seen God in His holiness. It is not the same thing.

The holiness that created Hell?

"If you don't worship me, I will send you to a burning lake of fire for you to suffer for all eternity."

I, just like all people, cannot grasp eternity, but I would never wish such a thing on anyone, for I am not sadistic. That, coupled with so many disturbing bible verses, disproved benevolence and holiness.

Why does a god need the approval of his lowly creations? Just like to have his ego stroked? Secondly, why does god have a penis? Does he use it? It would make much more sense for god to be a woman, as they give way to all life.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Islam Christianity and Judaism are all religions based on the stories of Abraham. So yes I'd say they are worshipping the same God. And they are all teaching the same base morality. They have different interpretations of some of the other parts.

So a religion that has Christ as God and a religion that doesn't have Christ as God are worshipping the same God?

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Sounds the same to me.

Okay.

 

[bignewt]

I never said they would fail immediately. However, societies begin to deteriorate when corruption and lack of moral standards begin to creep in. If we base our society on God and His teachings, then we would not tolerate corruption or a lack of morals. However, when humans begin to think that we can decide better than God what is moral and right, we see the corruption and degradation of our moral standards.

Here is an example and without any political bent one way or another being implied:

LT GEN Mike Flynn - faithfully served our nation for 33 years and was among the most well respected people in the nation. Interviewed by the Special Counsel and makes a misstatement about when and what was discussed with Russian officials and is charged with perjury and forced to plead guilty and resign in disgrace.

Hillary Clinton - easily one of the most polarizing individuals in our nation today. Been involved or near multiple scandals over multiple decades. Interviewed by the Director of the FBI about using a non-approved private e-mail server to send and store multiple classified and top secret documents. Fails to cooperate with the investigation by having the above servers wiped clean and plays ignorant about the situation. The FBI and DOJ find no reason to prosecute or charge her with perjury, obstruction of justice, or any other crime that multiple military members have been charged with for much less when it comes to the handling of classified documents.

This is simple corruption and degradation of morality at its root. If we are not all held to the same standard then the rule of law will continue to break down and our society will continue to crumble further into moral decay. God gives us a standard and states that we should all be held to it. It is not God's fault that we allow our failings as humans to ruin what He set up and wants for us.

It is not exclusive to God. Christian empires have fallen just like the Mayans, the Ottomans...etc and it is due to a variety of reasons, moral decay, economics, being overthrown by the new bully on the block. The whole "moral decay of America" is narrow minded IMO and has been complained about on the front porches of America since 1777.