Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

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#701
#701
Catbone said:
Are there actually different levels of heaven and hell?
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Well, Purgatory is for Catholics...it is temporary punishment for those that aren't judged to be able to go straight to Heaven. Kinda hades lite. Cool thing about Catholics, none of them go to hades. Worst option is Purgatory and that's temporary.

I'm Catholic :hi:

I will likely spend quite some time in Purgatory first. May set a record...get a plaque with my name on it there in the antechamber...you know, I'm kinda a big deal there. Everyone will know me there. :)
 
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#702
#702
JacketVol said:
I just feel so bad that the cross and blood of Christ is not enough for the remission of sins. I have been baptized and I get the direction as a thing to do. But, you can go under water 100 times and Christ told Nic that you have to be born again. It is a directive but so is loving others over yourself and many really struggle with that. I just have more faith in the power of the death of Christ than some others I guess.
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The cross and the blood are enough. I guess the question is how do you access/receive it? I believe the Bible says pretty clearly it is done at the point of baptism. Saul/Paul believed in Jesus when he was blinded on the road to Damascus. He called Him Lord then and there. I'm sure he desperately wanted to be cleansed of his sins, as he was convicted in his heart. Yet, three days later, he still had his sins. As Ananias told him, " And now why are you waiting, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins."

He believed. And I would say he even repented right there on the road. And you might could even say he confessed too as he called Jesus "Lord." And Jesus even told him to go into the city and it would be told to him what he MUST DO.

And again, three days later he still had his sin. He had his sin until he was baptized. It's not about a ritual or only symbolism or a "work" or an act. It's simply saying in your heart, Lord I desire the salvation you freely offer, and this is the way you have commanded me to receive it. It's about obedience and submission and just doing a simple act He asks us to do.

That's my take.
 
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#703
#703
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not. To him it is sin."...gonna wait for somebody to say the book of James is wrong, useless or some other excuse. If Jesus and the Apostles all taught that baptism is essential...Why would anybody that claims to be a follower of Christ, say it isn't?...If it wasn't important to salvation why did they teach it at all? It all goes back to obedience. It is that act of obedience, and all that come after, that is called "walking in newness of life". Surely nobody that claims to be a disciple of Christ is going to deny that obedience is essential to salvation?...right? Why would anybody argue against baptism? That is false teaching. There is no PROMISE of salvation anywhere in the Gospel without it. The ones who are honest hearted and repent, but for whatever reason are not baptized, they are in the hands of a just and merciful God. I believe he will keep that province to himself. When it comes down to it, it is simple, Jesus said "Now ye are made clean, by the word that I have spoken unto you"...It means more than it appears to. Obviously just hearing Jesus speak didn't cleanse sinners, but by doing(being obedient)to what he preached (do's and don'ts) you are truly washed in the blood of the Lamb. And that includes the second step..baptism.
 
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#704
#704
volssam said:
The cross and the blood are enough. I guess the question is how do you access/receive it? I believe the Bible says pretty clearly it is done at the point of baptism. Saul/Paul believed in Jesus when he was blinded on the road to Damascus. He called Him Lord then and there. I'm sure he desperately wanted to be cleansed of his sins, as he was convicted in his heart. Yet, three days later, he still had his sins. As Ananias told him, " And now why are you waiting, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins."

He believed. And I would say he even repented right there on the road. And you might could even say he confessed too as he called Jesus "Lord." But again, three days later he still had his sin. He had his sin until he was baptized. It's not about a ritual or symbolism or a "work" or an act. It's simply saying in your heart, Lord I desire the salvation you freely offer, and this is the way you have commanded me to receive it. It's about obedience and submission and just doing a simple act He asks us to do.

That's my take.
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The Bible and Paul says and was written that our rightousness which is our right living is as filthy rags. Even after being saved, we are stench to a holy God. Paul even said he did what he did not want to do and did not do what he wanted to do. He told Nicodemus that you must be born again. If you think you are not forgiven of sin until baptism, then you must need to go to the water a lot. He is constantly being our advocate and would rather us not sin but is our advocate before God for when we do. That is all I am going to say in the matter. We can agree to disagree. I actually believe that we should get baptized but it is not the manner that sins are forgiven.
 
#705
#705
JacketVol said:
The Bible and Paul says and was written that our rightousness which is our right living is as filthy rags. Even after being saved, we are stench to a holy God. Paul even said he did what he did not want to do and did not do what he wanted to do. He told Nicodemus that you must be born again. If you think you are not forgiven of sin until baptism, then you must need to go to the water a lot. He is constantly being our advocate and would rather us not sin but is our advocate before God for when we do. That is all I am going to say in the matter. We can agree to disagree. I actually believe that we should get baptized but it is not the manner that sins are forgiven.
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Again Jesus told Paul to go into the city and it would be told to him what he must do. Must.

And he still had his sins. And what did Ananias tell him to do to wash away his sins? Be baptized.

Baptism is only required once. That is when we get into Christ (gal 3:27) and access the saving power of Jesus's blood.

And then His blood continually cleanses us as we walk in the light. 1 John 1: 6-10
 
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#706
#706
Thanks gentlemen (and if there are any ladies joining in this) for the thoughtful responses in this discussion. I love, love, love talking to others about God's holy and inspired word! It helps me learn more and more, as I dive into the scriptures to find the ones that God gave us to support everything that pertains to life and godliness. Many want to say we can just agree to disagree on certain things, but I don't believe that is the right thing to do when it comes to commands given to us by Jesus to follow. With that said, I think about Ephesians 4:4-6...

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

Based on this, unfortunately, some of us are wrong. Paul told the Ephesians that there is one faith...that means there's only one way to believe...THE Way...Jesus' way and His commands exactly as He told them to us and exactly how the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the NT to record them for us. If it isn't written by direct command, given by apostolic example, or information gained through necessary inference, then I think we are going beyond what is written. Take sprinkling for example...why do we have no direct command for it, no example of it, and no information that we can necessarily infer that it occurred. Since we don't, then we are going beyond what is written. It's a very dangerous stance to take to say that since God didn't specifically say to not do it, then it must be acceptable. The silence of the scriptures is almost as important as what is directly written in the scriptures. There is a reason God doesn't mention it...because it's not acceptable to him.

On this note about sprinkling, Paul says above that there's one baptism...so someone is wrong. Baptism by immersion and baptism by sprinkling are 2 different baptisms, which contradicts what Paul wrote. This is why we have to go to the original Greek word, baptizo...to immerse or submerge. No where in the definition is to sprinkle. Just my 2 cents. :hi:
 
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#707
#707
OGbabyaviVol said:
Thanks gentlemen (and if there are any ladies joining in this) for the thoughtful responses in this discussion. I love, love, love talking to others about God's holy and inspired word! It helps me learn more and more, as I dive into the scriptures to find the ones that God gave us to support everything that pertains to life and godliness. Many want to say we can just agree to disagree on certain things, but I don't believe that is the right thing to do when it comes to commands given to us by Jesus to follow. With that said, I think about Ephesians 4:4-6...

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

Based on this, unfortunately, some of us are wrong. Paul told the Ephesians that there is one faith...that means there's only one way to believe...THE Way...Jesus' way and His commands exactly as He told them to us and exactly how the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the NT to record them for us. If it isn't written by direct command, given by apostolic example, or information gained through necessary inference, then I think we are going beyond what is written. Take sprinkling for example...why do we have no direct command for it, no example of it, and no information that we can necessarily infer that it occurred. Since we don't, then we are going beyond what is written. It's a very dangerous stance to take to say that since God didn't specifically say to not do it, then it must be acceptable. The silence of the scriptures is almost as important as what is directly written in the scriptures. There is a reason God doesn't mention it...because it's not acceptable to him.

On this note about sprinkling, Paul says above that there's one baptism...so someone is wrong. Baptism by immersion and baptism by sprinkling are 2 different baptisms, which contradicts what Paul wrote. This is why we have to go to the original Greek word, baptizo...to immerse or submerge. No where in the definition is to sprinkle. Just my 2 cents. :hi:
Click to expand...

Luckily our faith in Jesus is reliant upon our hearts being true and not our ability to get every single detail right. If the latter were true we would all be doomed to hell.
 
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#708
#708
This explains it better than I can write it. You have to be careful trying to take literal words like one baptism and not going with the full context of Scriptures instead of one verse at a time. The old joke is you can build a religion off of a couple of verses. Judas went out and hung himself . Now, go and do likewise. Two verses that if used together can really mess things up.

What does it mean that there is only one baptism (Ephesians 4:5)?

This link actually explains how same believer of same faith had some differences in some core beliefs and how Paul talks about one baptism and how it is all the same. Actually discusses baptism by physical and spiritual and also by water and by fire. Now, fire is what us Pentecostals believe and some of you guys have some real problems with that I bet. OG and Sam, read the link then maybe realize what sea of orange is saying may actually makes sense.

Paul also seems to downplay it in comparison to preaching and accepting the gospel in Corinthians.

Here is another good link.
https://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation

This is not to say who is right and who is wrong but read the entire Bible and pray and ask God for direction. Work out your on salvation WITH fear and trembling is another. Justification is by faith.
 
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#709
#709
OGbabyaviVol said:
Thanks gentlemen (and if there are any ladies joining in this) for the thoughtful responses in this discussion. I love, love, love talking to others about God's holy and inspired word! It helps me learn more and more, as I dive into the scriptures to find the ones that God gave us to support everything that pertains to life and godliness. Many want to say we can just agree to disagree on certain things, but I don't believe that is the right thing to do when it comes to commands given to us by Jesus to follow. With that said, I think about Ephesians 4:4-6...

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

Based on this, unfortunately, some of us are wrong. Paul told the Ephesians that there is one faith...that means there's only one way to believe...THE Way...Jesus' way and His commands exactly as He told them to us and exactly how the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the NT to record them for us. If it isn't written by direct command, given by apostolic example, or information gained through necessary inference, then I think we are going beyond what is written. Take sprinkling for example...why do we have no direct command for it, no example of it, and no information that we can necessarily infer that it occurred. Since we don't, then we are going beyond what is written. It's a very dangerous stance to take to say that since God didn't specifically say to not do it, then it must be acceptable. The silence of the scriptures is almost as important as what is directly written in the scriptures. There is a reason God doesn't mention it...because it's not acceptable to him.

On this note about sprinkling, Paul says above that there's one baptism...so someone is wrong. Baptism by immersion and baptism by sprinkling are 2 different baptisms, which contradicts what Paul wrote. This is why we have to go to the original Greek word, baptizo...to immerse or submerge. No where in the definition is to sprinkle. Just my 2 cents. :hi:
Click to expand...

No that's your interpretation of what he meant. My interpretation is that there is one baptism in that in Jesus' name and for his purposes not methodology. Jesus is more concerned about the heart than he his methodology. I believe our God is a much more compassionate than you give him credit for. Do you take up snakes? I mean it says in the bible to take up serpents.
 
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#710
#710
InVOLuntary said:
No that's your interpretation of what he meant. My interpretation is that there is one baptism in that in Jesus' name and for his purposes not methodology. Jesus is more concerned about the heart than he his methodology. I believe our God is a much more compassionate than you give him credit for. Do you take up snakes? I mean it says in the bible to take up serpents.
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I do believe God is a very compassionate God. I also believe He is a very wrathful God to those who disobey Him. Look at His wrath against His own special people in the OT because of disobedience. Even in the NT He struck down Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Where is the scripture about taking up serpents? That's not ringing a bell.
 
#711
#711
OGbabyaviVol said:
I do believe God is a very compassionate God. I also believe He is a very wrathful God to those who disobey Him. Look at His wrath against His own special people in the OT because of disobedience. Even in the NT He struck down Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Where is the scripture about taking up serpents? That's not ringing a bell.
Click to expand...

Mark 16:18
 
#712
#712
OGbabyaviVol said:
I do believe God is a very compassionate God. I also believe He is a very wrathful God to those who disobey Him. Look at His wrath against His own special people in the OT because of disobedience. Even in the NT He struck down Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Where is the scripture about taking up serpents? That's not ringing a bell.
Click to expand...

Jesus intervened on our behalf so we could be spared of His wrath which we all deserve.

We are now counted as perfect in God's eyes, despite our never ending list of downfalls and blemishes. We were adopted as sons and daughters into his kingdom. We take on the righteousness that Jesus lived out. And thank God for that! Because I could never reach it on my own. What a gracious and loving God we serve!
 
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#713
#713
The Bible is not a book detailing things we should do. It's an account about what Jesus already did,
 
#714
#714
volssam said:
Again Jesus told Paul to go into the city and it would be told to him what he must do. Must.

And he still had his sins. And what did Ananias tell him to do to wash away his sins? Be baptized.

Baptism is only required once. That is when we get into Christ (gal 3:27) and access the saving power of Jesus's blood.

And then His blood continually cleanses us as we walk in the light. 1 John 1: 6-10
Click to expand...

Ananias did not tell Paul to be baptized to wash away his sin. He told Paul that Paul was God's chosen messenger to the Gentiles and that the scales would fall off of Paul's eyes and Paul would be filled with Holy Spirit. Only then was Paul baptized. Anianias never told Paul to be baptized.

In Acts 16 when the Philippian jailer asked, What must I do to be saved? Why did Paul only say, believe on the LordJesus Christ? He made no mention of baptism. Now the jailer was baptized, but if baptism is as essential as you believe it to be you would think it to be the primary teaching of the NT.
Yet faith in Christ is the primary teaching of the NT.
 
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#715
#715
JacketVol said:
If you confess your sins and ask forgiveness you will be saved. If you don't have time to be baptized then I don't think it disqualified your salvation. Yes, it is good to obey and be baptized but if something were to happen to you before the church has a service to baptize, are you saying the person goes straight to hell? I would hope not or it becomes ceremonial just like the Pharisees that proceeded Christ.
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I think he said he was sprinkled, so he's already been baptized.
 
#716
#716
On multiple occasions in the NT people believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit and then are baptized.
Question: If a person is still in their sin until they are baptized, then how can the Holy Spirit fill them?
 
#717
#717
Ace said:
On multiple occasions in the NT people believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit and then are baptized.
Question: If a person is still in their sin until they are baptized, then how can the Holy Spirit fill them?
Click to expand...

Prevenient Grace bro
 
#718
#718
Ace said:
Ananias did not tell Paul to be baptized to wash away his sin. He told Paul that Paul was God's chosen messenger to the Gentiles and that the scales would fall off of Paul's eyes and Paul would be filled with Holy Spirit. Only then was Paul baptized. Anianias never told Paul to be baptized.

In Acts 16 when the Philippian jailer asked, What must I do to be saved? Why did Paul only say, believe on the LordJesus Christ? He made no mention of baptism. Now the jailer was baptized, but if baptism is as essential as you believe it to be you would think it to be the primary teaching of the NT.
Yet faith in Christ is the primary teaching of the NT.
Click to expand...


Ananias did tell him to be baptized. Acts 22:16. Paul is re-telling the story of his conversion. It is three days after his belief/faith on the road to Damascus. And his sins were
Not forgiven through faith. Only baptism.
 
#722
#722
Ace said:
On multiple occasions in the NT people believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit and then are baptized.
Question: If a person is still in their sin until they are baptized, then how can the Holy Spirit fill them?
Click to expand...

Acts 10. The conversion of Cornelius. The Spirit filled him and his family before they were saved/baptized. But there was a specific purpose for it. If you read the whole chapter and the first part of chapter 11, God is showing Peter that He is opening up teaching/salvation to the Gentiles. And the Holy Spirit coming on them was Him showing Peter this.
 
#724
#724
volssam said:
Ananias did tell him to be baptized. Acts 22:16. Paul is re-telling the story of his conversion. It is three days after his belief/faith on the road to Damascus. And his sins were
Not forgiven through faith. Only baptism.
Click to expand...

I apologize. I was referring only to Acts 10. I will have look at Acts 22 more closely, but washing away your sins may be grammatical connected to calling on the name of the Lord and not be baptized. I will check it out this week.
 
#725
#725
Ace said:
Ananias did not tell Paul to be baptized to wash away his sin. He told Paul that Paul was God's chosen messenger to the Gentiles and that the scales would fall off of Paul's eyes and Paul would be filled with Holy Spirit. Only then was Paul baptized. Anianias never told Paul to be baptized.

In Acts 16 when the Philippian jailer asked, What must I do to be saved? Why did Paul only say, believe on the LordJesus Christ? He made no mention of baptism. Now the jailer was baptized, but if baptism is as essential as you believe it to be you would think it to be the primary teaching of the NT.
Yet faith in Christ is the primary teaching of the NT.
Click to expand...

I keep saying this, so I don't know if it is getting looked over or missed or not understood or ignored.

I agree. You must believe to be saved. Belief that leads to baptism. Just as it did in acts 16.

This is what I don't get. If there is a verse that says what we must do to be saved, we must pay attention. If there are multiple verses that say different things about what to do to be saved, we must pay attention.

There are verses that only say we must believe to be saved.

There are verses that only say we must repent to be saved.

There are verses that only say confession leads to salvation

There are verses that only mention baptism for salvation.

And there are verses on different occasions that talk about a mixture of the above.

So to me the safe and obvious answer is they all are required for salvation.

But at the center of it is having the right heart that has an obedient and sincere faith in God and his grace and in Jesus as his Son with saving power.
 
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