Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

[Ace]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep..(How long did this last? It does not say. It's something that stares us in the face and no one ever see's it.)...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...(The counting of days did not begin till after he said "Let there be light")...I don't teach this, and I am in no way saying I believe this absolutely. I think like you, that if God wanted to create the Earth with animal and plant fossils buried under miles of sedimentary rock for some reason..he definitely could. My faith is not predicated on full understanding of Creation. The Creation story is obviously not all literal. There is no "tree" that gives eternal life or death. Jesus said..The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life....also the Book says..Death and Life are in the power of the tongue...Either way I believe Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God. As the old song says..."we'll understand it better by and by"

According to Genesis, God created Adam and Eve as mature adults (ie- old enough to reproduce). What if everything he created was created mature. Animals, plants etc all able to reproduce. Light from stars mature. The earth and soil mature with mineral deposits already in place.
What if the Flood then brought total upheaval and destroyed and layered all animals and plants then buried them under pressure. This would explain many questions some have about the geological and fossil record of the Earth.

 

[BJHSVol]

Heartbeat starts at 12 days per science. Most do not even know they are pregnant till after that time has passed. Not a religious argument but science.

Right but the argument that a heartbeat qualifies as life is a personal ethical/religious belief. Obviously at 12 days the baby can't survive on its own. It's not fully formed.

Basically my opinion is that at some point during the transition from conception to birth the baby becomes human. And where that is for each person is a personal choice and you can't really prove someone wrong/right.

I'm personally pro-choice but if someone else believes that life only begins when the baby could survive outside the womb, then you get into a religious/ethical debate

 

[chargervol]

For the record, I have no problem with any persons individual beliefs! But I do appreciate science so I felt compelled to respond.

Most all evolution supporters come at creationists with the dinosaur argument without really knowing or leaving out aspects that are uncomfortable - such as the shelf life of DNA, which has been found in even recent dinosaur digs by atheist and other secular scientists (Dr. Mary Schweitzer for one). DNA is very unstable and highly affected by temperature. Per secular scientific research, DNA when preserved in bone, which is where it is found most often in dinosaur finds, would be completely disintegrated in 22,000 years at 25 degrees C and 131,000 years at 15 degrees C. Yet, it is found. Per Assoc. Professor of Biological Sciences, Brandt Eichman at the the hated Vandy, DNA is highly reactive and not stable. He says on a good day about 1 million bases in the DNA in a single human cell are damaged. That doesn't even go into the "recipe" involved in each cell that causes animals and humans to produce after their own kind. Nor does that go into basic decomposition rates of dinosaur tissue, which proves there is no possible way they could have existed for millions of years in their currently discovered states. These are basic chemical composition and biological calculations that throw it under the bus and even most evolutionists acknowledge it. That is enough alone to destroy the myth of millions of years for dating dinosaurs.

First, there is more than one type of DNA.
Mitochondrial lasts much longer than nuclear.
So for mitochondrial, the current standard for complete dna is almost 7,000,000 years.
" mitochondrial DNA is degraded to an average length of 1 base pair after 6,830,000 years at −5 °C."
Secondly, there has been no validated science claiming true complete DNA from a dinosaur, much less "found most often".
The numbers you are quoting, while incorrect, are also for partial codes. DNA -as of now- has a set shelf life for complete codes, not the presence of any DNA. Here is a link showing the excitement of even the possibility of a complete code:
Pregnant T. Rex May Contain Dinosaur DNA, Discovery Could Lead To Scientists Cloning Dinosaurs
Sounds like something from creation.com as a guess.

So then they come at it with the meteor wipe out theory. Which is just a guess to get around the inexplicable conflicts. The theory promotes major cooling of the earth's surface due to the great clouds of dust that had to occur. There should be no frogs then, because scientists agree that species would have been there based on their understanding of fossil records. Frogs are even far more sensitive to climate change than any dinosaur, but they are still here. The acid rain, massive cooling and dust would have wiped them out. Yet, the fossil records indicate they thrived during the period the theory says they would be extinct. Oops. So their answer is still no better than the creationist scientist that states the extinction occurred as a result of The Flood or events from creation on Day 6 to another point in human history.

The initial freeze, while significant in number of deaths, was not the "be all, end all". Once the food source was depleted by X amount, larger creatures dealt with starvation.
To be exact, beings such as frogs, would have stood a much greater chance of survival than say a Brachiosaurus or even the fan fav Raptor.

 

[Brillovol]

Right but the argument that a heartbeat qualifies as life is a personal ethical/religious belief. Obviously at 12 days the baby can't survive on its own. It's not fully formed.

Basically my opinion is that at some point during the transition from conception to birth the baby becomes human. And where that is for each person is a personal choice and you can't really prove someone wrong/right.

I'm personally pro-choice but if someone else believes that life only begins when the baby could survive outside the womb, then you get into a religious/ethical debate

A human's DNA is formed almost instantaneously after conception. It's not religion, it's science. In other ways, if a pregnancy is unwillingly ended by someone with malicious intent, our laws state that person is charged with murder. Yet a doctor and a mother can choose to do the very same thing to the unborn baby and it's considered their right. In both cases, you have a life helpless with no say-so in either situation and destined to be killed.

Who gives a voice to the unborn? Who will stand in his/her place if both situations went to trial? In one case, a mother will stand In the child's place, but in the other we have no one standing for the child, all while the same mother stands with a figurative knife in her hand.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

According to Genesis, God created Adam and Eve as mature adults (ie- old enough to reproduce). What if everything he created was created mature. Animals, plants etc all able to reproduce. Light from stars mature. The earth and soil mature with mineral deposits already in place.
What if the Flood then brought total upheaval and destroyed and layered all animals and then buried them under pressure. This would explain many questions some have about the geological and fossil record of the Earth QUOTE]

Sounds good to me. Like I said, and I meant it, I do not have to know exactly how God did it. I know he created the earth. I don't care if it is literal or allegorical, if over seven days or billions of years.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

Right but the argument that a heartbeat qualifies as life is a personal ethical/religious belief. Obviously at 12 days the baby can't survive on its own. It's not fully formed.

Basically my opinion is that at some point during the transition from conception to birth the baby becomes human. And where that is for each person is a personal choice and you can't really prove someone wrong/right.

I'm personally pro-choice but if someone else believes that life only begins when the baby could survive outside the womb, then you get into a religious/ethical debate

OBVIOUSLY...a one day old baby can't survive on it's on. What does that have to do with anything? A unborn child has no advocate anymore. It makes me sick.

 

[Brillovol]

Sounds good to me. Like I said, and I meant it, I do not have to know exactly how God did it. I know he created the earth. I don't care if it is literal or allegorical, if over seven days or billions of years.

I'm here as well. My foundation is on one thing, and that is on Christ. I hold the Bible to be true yet I know there are some things I just will never know. I don't worry about those, even though I find them interesting to speculate about. There's many more important spiritual matters that I know to be true that outrank the unknowns.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

I'm here as well. My foundation is on one thing, and that is on Christ. I hold the Bible to be true yet I know there are some things I just will never know. I don't worry about those, even though I find them interesting to speculate about. There's many more important spiritual matters that I know to be true that outrank the unknowns.

Exactly.

 

[Ace]

According to Genesis, God created Adam and Eve as mature adults (ie- old enough to reproduce). What if everything he created was created mature. Animals, plants etc all able to reproduce. Light from stars mature. The earth and soil mature with mineral deposits already in place.
What if the Flood then brought total upheaval and destroyed and layered all animals and then buried them under pressure. This would explain many questions some have about the geological and fossil record of the Earth QUOTE]

Sounds good to me. Like I said, and I meant it, I do not have to know exactly how God did it. I know he created the earth. I don't care if it is literal or allegorical, if over seven days or billions of years.

I just wanted to join discussion. Creation is so important. As the first man, Adam'sm disobedience condemned mankind. His sin became our sin. We commit individual sins because we are sinners at heart, we are in Adam.

Is this fair? No

Thank God, God is not fair. He is gracious. Adam's disobedience counts against us, but Jesus' obedience can count for us. As sinners we are in Adam, but praise God salvation is available in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

I just wanted to join discussion. Creation is so important. As the first man, Adam's disobedience condemned mankind. His sin became our sin. We sin because we are sinners, we are in Adam.

Is this fair? No

Thank God, God is not fair. He is gracious. Adam's disobedience counts against us, but Jesus' obedience can count for us. As sinners we are in Adam, but praise God salvation is available in Christ Jesus.

Excellent post.

 

[Ace]

Jesus' death on the cross did more than pay for the sins we do. Our sins are but the fruit, Jesus paid for the root of sin (our Adamic nature). In Adam we are condemned. In Christ we are set free, forgiven, and made alive.

 

[Burger]

Basevols won on a walk off with two outs last night.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Right but the argument that a heartbeat qualifies as life is a personal ethical/religious belief. Obviously at 12 days the baby can't survive on its own. It's not fully formed.

Basically my opinion is that at some point during the transition from conception to birth the baby becomes human. And where that is for each person is a personal choice and you can't really prove someone wrong/right.

I'm personally pro-choice but if someone else believes that life only begins when the baby could survive outside the womb, then you get into a religious/ethical debate

If your heart stops beating completely, are you alive or dead? If a person with a brain injury is so severely damaged that they are in a vegetative state, are they alive or dead? Their heart is still beating, yet they cannot survive on their own.

God told the children of Israel when He made His covenant with them to never drink the blood from the sacrifices they made, because blood represents life. If blood represents life, then what is that little heart pumping when it starts beating in that baby? Also, if that little heart stops beating for some reason, is the mother's body and functions able to keep that baby alive and developing? No, she loses the pregnancy. Therefore, although that baby can't survive on its own until it is so far along in its development, he/she can't continue to develop and live if that little heart stops pumping life (blood) through that baby's little body. Based on this, at the very least, the baby is considered a life when it has a heartbeat. My personal belief is that it is a life at conception.

 

[Vol464]

If your heart stops beating completely, are you alive or dead? If a person with a brain injury is so severely damaged that they are in a vegetative state, are they alive or dead? Their heart is still beating, yet they cannot survive on their own.

God told the children of Israel when He made His covenant with them to never drink the blood from the sacrifices they made, because blood represents life. If blood represents life, then what is that little heart pumping when it starts beating in that baby? Also, if that little heart stops beating for some reason, is the mother's body and functions able to keep that baby alive and developing? No, she loses the pregnancy. Therefore, although that baby can't survive on its own until it is so far along in its development, he/she can't continue to develop and live if that little heart stops pumping life (blood) through that baby's little body. Based on this, at the very least, the baby is considered a life when it has a heartbeat. My personal belief is that it is a life at conception.

:good!:

 

[Vols4us]

For the record, I have no problem with any persons individual beliefs! But I do appreciate science so I felt compelled to respond.




First, there is more than one type of DNA.
Mitochondrial lasts much longer than nuclear.
So for mitochondrial, the current standard for complete dna is almost 7,000,000 years.
" mitochondrial DNA is degraded to an average length of 1 base pair after 6,830,000 years at −5 °C."
Secondly, there has been no validated science claiming true complete DNA from a dinosaur, much less "found most often".
The numbers you are quoting, while incorrect, are also for partial codes. DNA -as of now- has a set shelf life for complete codes, not the presence of any DNA. Here is a link showing the excitement of even the possibility of a complete code:
Pregnant T. Rex May Contain Dinosaur DNA, Discovery Could Lead To Scientists Cloning Dinosaurs
Sounds like something from creation.com as a guess.


The initial freeze, while significant in number of deaths, was not the "be all, end all". Once the food source was depleted by X amount, larger creatures dealt with starvation.
To be exact, beings such as frogs, would have stood a much greater chance of survival than say a Brachiosaurus or even the fan fav Raptor.

I stopped short of going into full detail as this is a message board. I appreciate your response.

Nuclear partial codes are the point. The partial code exists because of deterioration over time and exposure to elements of the full nuclear code. Mitochondrial has holes in it as you know. See below.

Problems with mitochondrial DNA as a marker in population, phylogeographic and phylogenetic studies: the effects of inherited symbionts. - PubMed - NCBI

The term they use is "ambiguous".

You refute accomplished scientific research on the frogs. It continues to be a major fly in the ointment, among others. Perhaps you are right. We will have to disagree on the point.

 

[Vols4us]

If your heart stops beating completely, are you alive or dead? If a person with a brain injury is so severely damaged that they are in a vegetative state, are they alive or dead? Their heart is still beating, yet they cannot survive on their own.

God told the children of Israel when He made His covenant with them to never drink the blood from the sacrifices they made, because blood represents life. If blood represents life, then what is that little heart pumping when it starts beating in that baby? Also, if that little heart stops beating for some reason, is the mother's body and functions able to keep that baby alive and developing? No, she loses the pregnancy. Therefore, although that baby can't survive on its own until it is so far along in its development, he/she can't continue to develop and live if that little heart stops pumping life (blood) through that baby's little body. Based on this, at the very least, the baby is considered a life when it has a heartbeat. My personal belief is that it is a life at conception.

:hi:

That's it.

Our daughter has experienced this on three occasions in the last few years. One made it, three didn't. We believe we will meet the three in heaven.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

:hi:

That's it.

Our daughter has experienced this on three occasions in the last few years. One made it, three didn't. We believe we will meet the three in heaven.

My wife lost one, too. Very difficult. Thankfully, it was early, as I'm sure it's even harder to give birth to a stillborn. My sympathies to your family and especially your daughter for her 3 losses.

 

[Vol464]

My wife lost one, too. Very difficult. Thankfully, it was early, as I'm sure it's even harder to give birth to a stillborn. My sympathies to your family and especially your daughter for her 3 losses.

We had 3 miscarriages. We expect to meet them in heaven.

 

[Vols4us]

My wife lost one, too. Very difficult. Thankfully, it was early, as I'm sure it's even harder to give birth to a stillborn. My sympathies to your family and especially your daughter for her 3 losses.

We had 3 miscarriages. We expect to meet them in heaven.

Prayers and peace to both of you and your families. Our daughter's were early as well. She badly wants a second child. Along with her husband (a good guy) we are working to calm her and to seek God's peace for the time he appoints. Fortunately her physicians have given her good news that there are no reasons physically to prevent it.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Prayers and peace to both of you and your families. Our daughter's were early as well. She badly wants a second child. Along with her husband (a good guy) we are working to calm her and to seek God's peace for the time he appoints. Fortunately her physicians have given her good news that there are no reasons physically to prevent it.

Putting on some prayer for her to have the confidence to put it in God's hands.

 

[OGbabyaviVol]

Prayers and peace to both of you and your families. Our daughter's were early as well. She badly wants a second child. Along with her husband (a good guy) we are working to calm her and to seek God's peace for the time he appoints. Fortunately her physicians have given her good news that there are no reasons physically to prevent it.

We had a difficult time having our girl...had to go through a reproduction specialist. My poor wife had to endure so much pain with needles and surgery just to have one child, but she will tell you it was all worth it for our one little beautiful blessing. Some take for granted how easy it is to have children. They don't realize those who have a difficult time to have just one.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

OT shows that we are sinners and need a Savior.
NT shows us there is a Savior and forgiveness is available.
Law and Grace are not at odds with each other, they are friends.

Agreed.

One of my friends tried to tell me that I was living an "ungodly" lifestyle one time just because I had 700 wives and 300 concubines. I was like, "dude, do you even OT?"

 

[Catbone]

Stupid protesters blocking miles of traffic again

 

[Brillovol]

Prayers and peace to both of you and your families. Our daughter's were early as well. She badly wants a second child. Along with her husband (a good guy) we are working to calm her and to seek God's peace for the time he appoints. Fortunately her physicians have given her good news that there are no reasons physically to prevent it.

We had a difficult journey as well. Two miscarriages, charting temperatures and days of the cycle, visits to the fertility clinic, difficult pregnancies, and two beautiful daughters. I believe my quiver is full with the two we'll get to meet in heaven and we are satisfied with what God gave us. We actually had to come to the point where we were ok if we never had any, then we were ok if we only had one. In each place, I've found peace but it came through understanding that God is enough no matter what.

 

[KBVol]

They offer a lot of french benefits.

They'll put him on a peddle stool, too and that's just something you can't take for granite.