Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXXVI

[Darth_Shiveman]

Same way our offense went from struggling bad with Worley to looking pretty good with Dobbs. A DT QB changes things, makes play calling easier because the defense has to account for his legs, keeps me guessing. Besides, JG can't be any worse passing the ball than QD.

Me too, but I still have some hope. Not gonna lie, when I saw Dormady go out for a play and JG come in, I got super excited.... 😕

I was excited too.


I guess what kills me the most is that QD is good enough to win that game for us. But the coaches put him in a position to fail again and again.

Maybe JG would enough gamer in him to make up for that. We'll probably see whether he does or not 2 years from now when he's starting at Auburn and we've got a McBride/Penix/Martinez (fingers crossed there) battle at QB with a coach who didn't recruit any of those guys.

 

[GoBigOrangeVols]

Thoughts:

1. John Kelly is an outstanding player.

2. Offensive play calling was abysmal. Truly awful in the redzone like nothing I've ever seen. It cannot be overstated how bad the redzone gameplan and play calling were. That was the difference in the game.

3. QD struggled. Not calling for him to be replaced yet, but JG needs to get plenty of reps.

4. Defense mostly played well. The Florida offense is awful though. 53 and 8 are big liabilities. 1 seems non existant.

5. Discipline. Where'd it go? 4 and 66 with boneheaded penalties in crucial situations that really hurt us. 66 had 3 redzone false starts. Unacceptable. Put in Boulware.

6. I have no confidence right now that Butch can ever get over the top.

7. We are a talented team. There is a long season still ahead of us and we still have a good chance in the East. Can our coaches loosen up the reigns and let the boys play up to their potential?

 

[Appalachiamuck]

I think if JG starts this is possible 9 win team.

We need to play JG. I don't think there's even a debate anymore guys. BB was right. Dormady is not good.

Because JG looked so great when he was in there...vs Indiana St. Open your eyes, both are weak.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

7. Can our coaches loosen up the reigns and let the boys play up to their potential?

Have they ever?

 

[Smokey123]

I was excited too.


I guess what kills me the most is that QD is good enough to win that game for us. But the coaches put him in a position to fail again and again.

Maybe JG would enough gamer in him to make up for that. We'll probably see whether he does or not 2 years from now when he's starting at Auburn and we've got a McBride/Penix/Martinez (fingers crossed there) battle at QB with a coach who didn't recruit any of those guys.

It was good enough today, yes. But it's wasn't good. If that makes sense. 3 INT's. 2 (including the pick six) 100% his fault. The other one in the red zone I'm not sure if that was WR, him, both or what. It seems(I'll rewatch like I always do) Most of his passes were short passes.... If we try to air it out more down field, how many more picks does he throw? They dropped at least 2 also. Staff doesn't trust QD to throw it down field IMO, or atleast it appears that way.

He stares WR's down, Throws off his back foot, Throws behind them, Bad footwork. I just don't understand why. A Million dollar arm can only get you so far. Maybe he'll improve, who knows, but if Butch wants a job next year then he can't sit around and wait for that to happen.

 

[Smokey123]

Because JG looked so great when he was in there...vs Indiana St. Open your eyes, both are weak.

Yes because throwing 14 passes vs ISU shows how good someone is, right? Do u remember how bad Dobbs played vs App state

 

[Smokey123]

Have they ever?

Full game, never. Few halfs here and there.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

It was good enough today, yes. But it's wasn't good. If that makes sense. 3 INT's. 2 (including the pick six) 100% his fault. The other one in the red zone I'm not sure if that was WR, him, both or what. It seems(I'll rewatch like I always do) Most of his passes were short passes.... If we try to air it out more down field, how many more picks does he throw? They dropped at least 2 also. Staff doesn't trust QD to throw it down field IMO, or atleast it appears that way.

He stares WR's down, Throws off his back foot, Throws behind them, Bad footwork. I just don't understand why. A Million dollar arm can only get you so far. Maybe he'll improve, who knows, but if Butch wants a job next year then he can't sit around and wait for that to happen.

Idk if I'd put all the blame on him for those picks. Asking him to throw the ball so much in the redzone instead of giving the ball to JK is asking for him to fail.

The coaches are setting him up to struggle by making him run basically the stuff we ran with Dobbs despite a different skill set. If they wanna roll with Dormady, they need to be under center or in the pistol more. They need to run to set up the pass (not vice versa). He can be a game manager that wins games


But if they don't make any changes to accommodate his skillset and remain inflexible in scheme, I agree JG deserves an honest look as starter. No use forcing a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Appalachiamuck]

Thoughts:

1. John Kelley is an outstanding player.

Agreed. By far the best on the team. And btw, it's Kelly :thumbsup:

2. Offensive play calling was abysmal. Truly awful in the redzone like nothing I've ever seen. It cannot be overstated how bad the redzone gameplan and play calling were. That was the difference in the game.

I don't know jack about football strategy, but I'm just giving the ball to #4 all day and living/dying with that.

3. QD struggled. Not calling for him to be replaced yet, but JG needs to get plenty of reps.

I would describe his overall performance as worse than "struggled". Again, I don't know jack about football, but that was ugly.

4. Defense mostly played well. The Florida offense is awful though. 53 and 8 are big liabilities. 1 seems non existant.

I cannot agree. They did what they have done under Shoop. Give up big plays. Shoop is a liability.

5. Discipline. Where'd it go? 4 and 66 with boneheaded penalties in crucial situations that really hurt us. 66 had 3 redzone false starts. Unacceptable. Put in Boulware.

Imo, the UC on #4 was dumb, but jmo. #66 truly hurt us, and it's mind boggling.

6. I have no confidence right now that Butch can ever get over the top.

Come on in, the water is warm!

7. We are a talented team. There is a long season still ahead of us and we still have a good chance in the East. Can our coaches loosen up the reigns and let the boys play up to their potential?

We've seen it for over 4 years now. Aside from a few quarters in that time, it's the same old song and dance. I love the guy, but it's not happening. Even with the best schedule and more talent than we've seen in 8 years, I believe the best case scenario is 8-4. It makese me sick to type that being the sunshine pumper I have been all these years.

.

 

[Smokey123]

Idk if I'd put all the blame on him for those picks. Asking him to throw the ball so much in the redzone instead of giving the ball to JK is asking for him to fail.

The coaches are setting him up to struggle by making him run basically the stuff we ran with Dobbs despite a different skill set. If they wanna roll with Dormady, they need to be under center or in the pistol more. They need to run to set up the pass (not vice versa). He can be a game manager that wins games


But if they don't make any changes to accommodate his skillset and remain inflexible in scheme, I agree JG deserves an honest look as starter. No use forcing a square peg into a round hole.

I agree, throwing in the red zone is setting himself up for failure. Which is why I didn't include the one INT in the red zone. The one where he was under pressure and threw to the RB (Chandler I think) was a poor throw, and so was the one that was high on a hitch route to Callaway. Those were on him IMO.

Agree, but that's definitely not gonna happen. Butch will run that same offense no matter who is QB. And also agree with run to set up the pass. Pass to set up the run will NOT work with Dormady and this offense.

 

[Appalachiamuck]

Yes because throwing 14 passes vs ISU shows how good someone is, right? Do u remember how bad Dobbs played vs App state

It's Indiana State, c'mon. He looked bad. He wasn't sharp, wasn't crisp, wasn't confident. When QD came in last season, on the rare occasion, he at least looked pretty solid. We are seeing different now, but going off the small sample from last year and the spring game he looked decent. In the small sample we have of JG he has not looked good. Break it down however you want, but he did not look that great in the spring game and looked bad vs ISU.

Do I think QD is hands down better? Nope. Do I think JG is a lost cause? Nope. But to sit there at your keyboard and act like he's obviously the better choice is just silly. I agree he needs more game reps, but what we have seen of him so far has not been impressive in the least.

 

[GoBigOrangeVols]

Today It was all about the Xs and Os not the Jimmy's and Joes.

 

[Smokey123]

It's Indiana State, c'mon. He looked bad. He wasn't sharp, wasn't crisp, wasn't confident. When QD came in last season, on the rare occasion, he at least looked pretty solid. We are seeing different now, but going off the small sample from last year and the spring game he looked decent. In the small sample we have of JG he has not looked good. Break it down however you want, but he did not look that great in the spring game and looked bad vs ISU.

Do I think QD is hands down better? Nope. Do I think JG is a lost cause? Nope. But to sit there at your keyboard and act like he's obviously the better choice is just silly. I agree he needs more game reps, but what we have seen of him so far has not been impressive in the least.

He. Barely. Played. He threw multiple nice deep balls that should have been caught. One of his incompletions came on a play he got lit up on. He only made 2 bad throws and one bad choice when he kept the ball. He came in for 1 or 2 drives then back out. Then back in late in the game. He was never able to find a rhythm, that doesn't mean he's not good lol.

In this offense we either need an amazing passer with good pocket presence, or a dual threat. Dormady is neither

 

[Smokey123]

Not sure what this means but it was just posted and I'm sure it was about the game.

[Twitter]https://twitter.com/d1fuzzymuffin17/status/909310421903036416[/Twitter]

 

[seaofORANGE22]

I just don't understand it when coaches box themselves into such strict systems. Why not use formations and plays that give you the best chance to convert the down and distance you're facing at the time? Our coach has no game theory. Just a system. And when the system fails he fails. And in every big game, in one quarter or another, we go on long stretches where his system fails... Most of the time because teams know what we're trying to do. This has happened throughout Butch's time here.

He is so determined to prove to everybody that he can win with his system, instead of just trying to win at all cost, which is what he promised us he would do here. It's the ultimate me-first mind set. He does not value Tennessee. He values Butch Jones and his lasting personal legacy on the game of college football. Either that or he's just not that smart. Either way, it means he's not the right guy unless he changes his entire approach, which I have no faith that he will do.

I would honestly be okay if we fired him this week and named Bob Shoop Interim HC. I think if he and Scott and Gillespie put their heads together and used this teams strengths to build a different more versatile offense, we could roll teams. But we have to make things easier on the QB and put whoever is back there in favorable situations. Our defense would be fine and the hope would be that everybody played a lot looser and started having fun on the field a little more. It's possible we have some really good coaches on our staff that are being handcuffed by this flawed system. If Shoop does well, he could be a real candidate for us at the end of the season.

As long as Butch is the coach I will continue rooting for the team and hoping for success. But I am emotionally detached from things. I sort of have been for a while I think. I would like to see a coaching change at some point before next year unless things drastically change for the better.

I see no reason why we can't attract a talented coach. This could be a much different search than the one last time. Tennessee is a difficult job, but it is set up to win and ascend in the East for the foreseeable future. Everything is on the table from there. We can certainly upgrade. Butch has given us valuable stability. I can appreciate that. But he's not an elite coach and this is an elite job. Or at least it could be if the people in charge decide to see us as that.

Oh and also, screw Florida

Go big orange forever

 

[Appalachiamuck]

He. Barely. Played. He threw multiple nice deep balls that should have been caught. One of his incompletions came on a play he got lit up on. He only made 2 bad throws and one bad choice when he kept the ball. He came in for 1 or 2 drives then back out. Then back in late in the game. He was never able to find a rhythm, that doesn't mean he's not good lol.

In this offense we either need an amazing passer with good pocket presence, or a dual threat. Dormady is neither

I appreciate you adding the period after each word, your point was conveyed much more clearly by doing so.

I never said he was bad. I said I felt like he didn't look good/looked bad...in the small sample size that we've seen him. And, at the end of the day it's jmo.

I think if we are expecting JG to come in and turn this team around we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. I don't think he is single handedly good enough to put this team on his shoulders and win games in spite of the coaching deficiencies. But hey, that's. just. my. opinion.

 

[JacketVol]

Been thinking long and hard. I thought of old cheese and Phil running it down arky's throat. We did that and Florida was gassed. First and 10. Run the ball and worse case is a FG and OT and no timeouts and little time for the opponent. Or score a TD and keep them out of the endzone. They still would not have much time. Take the headset off and call the plays yourself Butch. It was simple but we crapped the bed.

With nine seconds left, I told my son they are going to take a shot. They did and we freaking lose. I am not even a middle school coach and I know better. I was a QB in highschool so that helps but any fool knows what to do and when to go for two. Thinking of past crap too.

How come this stubborn hard azz idiot doesn't know how to manage a freaking game? He better find a way to win nine games in the regular season and go 5-3 in conference. No excuses but JUST WIN BUTCH AND PLAY JARRETT REGARDLESS. He can throw three interceptions and yes I saw Indiana State and kid should've been 6-12 if guys make catches. It's time for his shot. QD had his and if we had won this in OT then we could be 3-0 and start QD again. We are 2-1 and Jarrett deserves his chance. I don't trust any of his decision making. Put Byrd at CB with Wiggins and GAULDEN and Warrior at safety and Abernathy at nickle. Time to give JG his shot. If that pisses QD off then tell him to quit throwing off his back foot. JUST WIN BUTCH OR BE FIRED.

 

[Le Diplomate]

The big question, IMO, is going to be if the coaches learn from the MANY mistakes they made this game (no prevent defense with the clock running out, poor clock management at the end of the game, no runs inside the 10 yard line, no goal line offense, running zone read with QD despite him being no threat to run, etc) and make some meaningful adjustments to give the team a chance to get past 6-7 wins.

No question the coaches made some poor decisions, but consider the flip side of the last few minutes:

1) If the Vols run Kelly three times into run blitzes and the field goal gets blocked (or Medley, not exactly Mr. Reliable, misses it), then we're all upset that Butch was too predictable. "Why didn't we open up the playbook to try and win the game?" I thought Tennessee should have run the ball at least once in that sequence, but remember that Kelly drops a sure touchdown pass on first down. Clearly the Florida defense didn't expect that play.

2) MacElwain said in the press conference afterward that the Gators were trying to pick up 25 yards or so, call a timeout, and give Pinero (a really good, big-legged kicker) a shot at the game winner. If Shoop plays three-deep or quarters zone coverage, or worse yet, only rushes three, then it plays right into the Florida play-call.

I'm as pissed as anyone at the end of the game, but if Kelly catches that touchdown pass, Kongbo doesn't let Franks escape containment, or Abernathy (I think he was the safety on Cleveland) doesn't take one false step, Tennessee wins that ballgame. Note that I'm not blaming any of the individual players-- win as a team, lose as team-- but execution absolutely crushed the Vols all day.

The biggest indictment of Butch (and Scott, if he had a free hand to call plays) is the offensive gameplan in the first half. That first-and-goal sequence was terrible, and relying on first year receivers (Palmer) at the goal line is a recipe for disaster. Watching Henderson return the tipped pass for a touchdown gave me PTSD flashbacks to the immortal AJ Suggs against Georgia back in the early 2000s.

TL;DR: The game never should have come down to Florida's best WR against a safety in single coverage, because Tennessee should have been up 13-6 or more at halftime. Who knows how the game plays out if the Vols have a halftime lead, but I don't think Tennessee loses on a Hail Mary.

 

[JCP201]

Vandy could beat UF.

Vandy could beat UF.

Butch doesn't need to make any excuses about our injuries. UF had ten players suspended, and they were gassed and lacked good back up depth when Kelly was powering down the field. VOL could have scored in the red zone by running Kelly and Ty.

 

[JCP201]

I will cheer for Tennessee every game. I will celebrate the players win or lose. I will hope for the best for Butch because I want him to succeed.

However, today was the day I lost faith that Butch could figure it out and become an elite SEC coach. It took me awhile but today, for me, was comparable to the MissSt game for Dooley. It was when I knew it was over. Butch is way better than Dooley, but that isn't a whole lot. He has been good for the program, and deserves much more respect than he has gotten. But if we want to celebrate championships he is probably not our guy.

I will watch every game, go to games and enjoy the ride with Butch as coach...but I do not believe he is going to win a title at Tennessee. That sense of lost hope takes some of the joy out of this hobby called Vol football.

This is exactly how I feel right now.

 

[BoseefusTheVol]

Butch Jones is just a dumb coach. Unlike the idiot before him, he can recruit and he's accumulated a good roster. For the tools running the athletic department, go find a decent coach... it ain't that hard.

 

[drvenner]

We had more rushing yards and lost. When was the last time that happened?

I think it was 2015 actually

 

[drvenner]

I was going to post that all this talk about which coach to hire is crazy, because Butch is going to win enough to keep his job. However, after seeing Kentucky, Vandy, and UK, that is very much up in the air. I still think we win 7 or 8, but the only game left that we will have an easy win in is this Saturday against UMass. We are going to have a lot of hypertension-induced games the rest of the year. A lot.

 

[volatil]

UGA or GTFO


#youthinkwewouldlearn

 

[HankHill]

Butch Jones is just a dumb coach. Unlike the idiot before him, he can recruit and he's accumulated a good roster. For the tools running the athletic department, go find a decent coach... it ain't that hard.

It actually is pretty hard. Look at the recent hires: uscjr,LSU,USC, ND. I get what you're saying but there's not a lot of them out of there.