Reasonable fans post game discussion

[bleedingTNorange]

The age old saying of "If you're wide open there is probably a reason" may apply here. JJJ getting a wide open 3 isn't actually a good look right now.

This is true, and something I’ve continued saying, we have to shoot the ball better or nothing matters…we don’t have dominate posts to dump it into, we are gonna have to shoot better.

 

[zjcvols]

It’s weird we say we don’t get good looks but our % of 3’s considered “open” are above the national average.

Because the “open” stat is extremely flawed.

That stat doesn’t consider who is shooting or the shot clock. As earlier posted, that pull up 3 from JJJ with 28 seconds on the shot clock is considered an “open” look and I guarantee you Barnes is going to the film and marking that as a negative play.

Another play. Against Alabama for that 3 near the end…Bailey is considered open. That’s considered a good look. Only person on this board thought that was a good shot considering time and person.

I’d rather have Santi take a 3 with a guy 1 feet away from him than Bailey and JJJ with nobody within 5 feet of them.

I love advanced metrics and numbers, but that “open” stat is severely flawed.

 

[zjcvols]

Most of the 3s we take aren’t good looks though. If we work the ball inside and then kick out that’s almost always a better shot than passing it around the perimeter and jacking up a 3, at least with the way we pass it is. We rarely skip pass and our passes are often either off target so the shooter can’t catch and shoot or the receiving player doesn’t catch the ball cleanly.

Another issue is our posts are extremely slow decision makers. Especially Fulk. He isn’t a good passer from the post. When he gets doubled, rarely can he find an open skip pass as you mentioned.

 

[orangemadam]

BHH just isn't giving effort, Powell looks like Fulky (slow and no energy), and JJJ is just in a funk but at least makes up for it on hustle and defense.

Time to sit Fulky, start Plav.

Chandler
ZZZ/Mashach
Vescovi/JJ
Orn/Bhh
Plav/Fulky

try this as starters

 

[zjcvols]

The biggest issue I see thus far is that we allow other teams to decide who shoots the 3 ball vs. us being more intentional on who we want shooting. The announcer said last night said 49% of TN's 3-pointers are open looks which seems good at first glance until you realize who is shooting them: JJJ, Ziegler, & Bailey shot 10 of our 3-pointers or 42% of the total while making only 2 for 20% versus SV, Chandler, Powell who shot 11 of our 3-pointers making 4 for 36%. If we go back and look at the season, they are attempting right at 40% so this is a recurring theme.

Therefore, I would say that the best adjustment we would make would be to be much more selective on who shoots which starts with who is on the floor (Powell only had 1 3-pt attempt which he missed - gotta get him more looks which means much more PT period). Next, we need better spacing and more touches in the paint (via post-ups or drive and kick) to stress the opposing teams defense which is your point about the scheme and sets we run. Last but not least, simply being open should not be enough for certain players to let it fly since there is a reason teams are leaving them open (unless, of course, we are under 10 on the shot clock).

While the motion offense gives freedom which can be good, when we are playing a lot of non shooters it can be a negative. If your offensive outlook is including 7 3PA from JJJ then we need to do a better job disturbing shots or putting in more safe guards. That’s bad offensive strategy.

 

[zjcvols]

This is an interesting and informative post. Admittedly, I’m not a well versed X&O guy in either basketball or football. Never coached or played either game in a highly organized fashion.

From my observation, having at least watched a ton of basketball, it felt like the objective of our offense has shifted dramatically from dump it to the post (3-4 years ago, to mid-range looks (last year), to threes (this year).

But it sounds like we have been doing all three things using the same offensive construct?

Regarding the bad shooting, I think it is really, really simple…we don’t recruit great shooters. Period.

We always took a ton of mid range jumpers. Until this year. We finally converted those to 3’s. Which is good! But a huge problem is we still are getting these from the motion offense and the motion offense isn’t well designed or run. So yeah we are taking more 3’s (which again is good!) but the looks are not quality.

And yes, it seems like we aren’t recruiting good shooters or since Lanier has left lost the development skills to teach guys how to shoot.

 

[SpendToWinVol]

In Barnes 6+ years here we have been average or below average in conference play in offensive efficiency in 5/7 years. Other than the two Grant SEC POY years, we’ve been poor on offense. I think yes we’ve missed a decent amount of open looks that in years past we hit. But I’m still not seeing enough consistent good looks from players that should be taking a shot. Yeah sure maybe the numbers show JJJ got an open 3 with 19 seconds left in the shot clock and that goes down as a “good look” but to me that’s not a good look. That’s not what we want.

Well said

 

[zjcvols]

We need some sort of offensive post presence in this offense. Yesterday we fed the post early often (both low and high post) and even when we kicked it back out at least we had good looks and we’re playing well initially. But we stopped. Nkamhoua has improved so if Fulkerson either doesn’t feel well or doesn’t want it than let Nkamhoua be primary. Otherwise we are left with only a couple of options in the half court: a) Chandler creating with the dribble. He is talented but it seems he still needs to adjust to longer athletic players as he is getting himself into trouble often. b) Doing dribble handoffs around the perimeter and jacking up a 3 from a group of players who are proving every game that they can’t make contested 3’s. Numbers don’t lie, we are what we are offensively in the half court and it isn’t pretty. Last year we were saying the same thing, but at least the excuse was we didn’t have a PG. This year we have 2 and it is still an ugly offense.

Defensively we are very good, but you would think at this stage of the season we could provide some semblance of consistency on offense. As others have said, we need to push tempo. We are allowing defenses to get set to our detriment. Otherwise the rotation is baffling.

Give Uros credit as he is earning some time off the bench. However we need another frontcourt player (BHH) off the bench because unlike last year, JJJ shooting at this poor a percentage from the field is a huge liability when we play small ball. I love Ziegler. Powell doesn’t look like he is enjoying himself. Whether it is his own confidence or he is playing with a leash around his neck, who knows. He has skills, let him play consistent minutes. Spot minutes for Mashack is fine but a backcourt rotation of Vescovi, Chandler and Ziegler works for me the rest of the way. Bailey should not get any minutes. James has other good qualities on the floor, but should be told never to shoot another 3 again. Bailey, if not scoring, has no other qualities which earns him minutes. It is just horrid how poorly both he and James are shooting, which is substantially worse than their previous years. If either were shooting to their previous season averages we would be an interesting team.

Barnes’ best teams historically had a solid low post threat. Whether he’s overrated Fulky or why he can’t find another post guy to run the offense through I don’t know. It’s very odd.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Because the “open” stat is extremely flawed.

That stat doesn’t consider who is shooting or the shot clock. As earlier posted, that pull up 3 from JJJ with 28 seconds on the shot clock is considered an “open” look and I guarantee you Barnes is going to the film and marking that as a negative play.

Another play. Against Alabama for that 3 near the end…Bailey is considered open. That’s considered a good look. Only person on this board thought that was a good shot considering time and person.

I’d rather have Santi take a 3 with a guy 1 feet away from him than Bailey and JJJ with nobody within 5 feet of them.

I love advanced metrics and numbers, but that “open” stat is severely flawed.

And that’s fair and I get that…Bailey appears a lost cause and his minutes show that’s likely the move, but JJJ is gonna play, he has to figure out something with his shot…doesn’t have to be 40%, but goodness 15% ain’t gonna work.

 

[Vols8086]

Cal makes more than Rick and he hasn’t exactly done any better recently. The salary stuff is extremely dumb, but it’s fine to say we should be able to expect more from the talent on this team.

I think the salary stuff isn't articulated well, but it isn't a dumb take. When UT decided to give Barnes top 5 money, they essentially told the college basketball world they were serious about funding a championship level program. When you start paying that much money for a coach, you suddenly have a much larger and better pool of coaches to choose from when you have to hire the next coach. They paid Barnes for what he accomplished with Grant, Admiral, and that bunch. Well he certainly hasn't come close to duplicating that and at some point he will have to answer for that if he continues on his current trend. Whenever Barnes is done here (which will be retirement because I dont think he will be fired), if the administration is waving around top 5 money for their next coach, you better believe we will have a long line of people ready to interview. But that large a check comes with expectations. It amazes me how many people just ignore that. That is how the world operates.

 

[zjcvols]

And that’s fair and I get that…Bailey appears a lost cause and his minutes show that’s likely the move, but JJJ is gonna play, he has to figure out something with his shot…doesn’t have to be 40%, but goodness 15% ain’t gonna work.

Even though ON has been fine and Fulky is a super senior…I think moving JJJ to the 4 full time is the best bet. Asking him to be the 3 with such little spacing is doing nothing.

But he has to do a better job with his shot IQ. If you saw my earlier posts, he’s making bad decisions. He’s not in the flow of the offense.

 

[calban]

I think the salary stuff isn't articulated well, but it isn't a dumb take. When UT decided to give Barnes top 5 money, they essentially told the college basketball world they were serious about funding a championship level program. When you start paying that much money for a coach, you suddenly have a much larger and better pool of coaches to choose from when you have to hire the next coach. They paid Barnes for what he accomplished with Grant, Admiral, and that bunch. Well he certainly hasn't come close to duplicating that and at some point he will have to answer for that if he continues on his current trend. Whenever Barnes is done here (which will be retirement because I dont think he will be fired), if the administration is waving around top 5 money for their next coach, you better believe we will have a long line of people ready to interview. But that large a check comes with expectations. It amazes me how many people just ignore that. That is how the world operates.

And what the Pumpers don't realize or want to admit is that Barnes will go into the HOF as a program builder and not what he accomplishes in Post season. sad part is, he knew it was time to move on and wasn't allowed to. Who can blame him for taking the money and staying. It was good business and great deal to get him to retirement.

 

[walkenvol]

You don't. Shooting is in a guy or it's not. I stated in an above post my thoughts on the Barnes approach to the game. You can coach them as to getting the best shooting position for success, but you can't teach him to shoot. Maybe like a guy who throws a baseball 100mph+ (you don't teach that, it's god given) you can help him with mechanics to help him become a better 100+ guy but that's it. Same with shooting...

Admiral didn’t show up at UT as a perimeter shooter. Punter also successfully changed his shooting mechanics while at UT. Vescovi hit 5 or 6 3’s in his first game playing at UT against lsu. Powell was a prolific hs shooter as was Bailey. College defenses try to not allow good shooters easy open looks. The good shooters adjust or they’re unsuccessful.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Even though ON has been fine and Fulky is a super senior…I think moving JJJ to the 4 full time is the best bet. Asking him to be the 3 with such little spacing is doing nothing.

But he has to do a better job with his shot IQ. If you saw my earlier posts, he’s making bad decisions. He’s not in the flow of the offense.

Yea, I’ve been campaigning for him as a 4 and commit to small ball for awhile…this would give great spacing with ON as a 5 primarily and would allow Barnes to toy around with Fulk off the bench. Obviously would mean he’s gotta commit to playing Powell 25mpg which probably means allowing a couple mistakes, which he seems to not wanna do. But yea, our potential is its highest going small imo.

 

[walkenvol]

Another issue is our posts are extremely slow decision makers. Especially Fulk. He isn’t a good passer from the post. When he gets doubled, rarely can he find an open skip pass as you mentioned.

This is completely wrong

 

[walkenvol]

And what the Pumpers don't realize or want to admit is that Barnes will go into the HOF as a program builder and not what he accomplishes in Post season. sad part is, he knew it was time to move on and wasn't allowed to. Who can blame him for taking the money and staying. It was good business and great deal to get him to retirement.

And what the pumpers can’t get is a designated thread where the trolls show up to post crap about the coach or the coach’s salary. Impossible for you guys to go into a thread and stick to discussing the game even though there’s 10 other threads trashing the coach? It’s as annoying as going into a recruiting thread and having to sort through guy’s talking about 10 other topics.

 

[Vols8086]

Yea, I’ve been campaigning for him as a 4 and commit to small ball for awhile…this would give great spacing with ON as a 5 primarily and would allow Barnes to toy around with Fulk off the bench. Obviously would mean he’s gotta commit to playing Powell 25mpg which probably means allowing a couple mistakes, which he seems to not wanna do. But yea, our potential is its highest going small imo.

I've said multiple times this year that I would love to see us fully embrace the small ball and have a unit where JJJ is the 5. Fully space the floor, up the tempo, open up driving lanes, etc. You can't live in it, but I think it could work and provide a spark for 5 or 10 minutes a game.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I've said multiple times this year that I would love to see us fully embrace the small ball and have a unit where JJJ is the 5. Fully space the floor, up the tempo, open up driving lanes, etc. You can't live in it, but I think it could work and provide a spark for 5 or 10 minutes a game.

Yea I wouldn’t hate it, Pons was obviously bulkier, but we did it with him some last year iirc…again the biggest hold up I see (on Barnes end) is that it’s going to require Powell playing big minutes and therefore being allowed to play through a few mistakes.

 

[zjcvols]

This is completely wrong

When Fulk gets doubled team, he is not doing a good job of finding open players or getting it to other players. He has low assists numbers for a reason

 

[hUTch2002]

Another issue is our posts are extremely slow decision makers. Especially Fulk. He isn’t a good passer from the post. When he gets doubled, rarely can he find an open skip pass as you mentioned.

Uros is actually a decent passer. It’s surprising.

 

[zjcvols]

Uros is actually a decent passer. It’s surprising.

I will give it to him, he’s okay and ON isn’t terrible. My main grief is with Fulky in the postn

 

[VolArmy74]

The biggest issue I see thus far is that we allow other teams to decide who shoots the 3 ball vs. us being more intentional on who we want shooting. The announcer said last night said 49% of TN's 3-pointers are open looks which seems good at first glance until you realize who is shooting them: JJJ, Ziegler, & Bailey shot 10 of our 3-pointers or 42% of the total while making only 2 for 20% versus SV, Chandler, Powell who shot 11 of our 3-pointers making 4 for 36%. If we go back and look at the season, they are attempting right at 40% so this is a recurring theme.

Therefore, I would say that the best adjustment we would make would be to be much more selective on who shoots which starts with who is on the floor (Powell only had 1 3-pt attempt which he missed - gotta get him more looks which means much more PT period). Next, we need better spacing and more touches in the paint (via post-ups or drive and kick) to stress the opposing teams defense which is your point about the scheme and sets we run. Last but not least, simply being open should not be enough for certain players to let it fly since there is a reason teams are leaving them open (unless, of course, we are under 10 on the shot clock).

This in spades, teams watch film and know who they can leave open at the 3 point line without much worry. We just keep feeding them and we keep missing them. The shots don't even look good 90 percent of the time. Just flat out bricks. I don't know how we got to a point where we can't shoot from outside and don't have much going inside either. When our defense breaks down like it did yesterday and against Villanova, it gets ugly.

 

[tennrich1]

I admit, I’m an emotional roller coaster on game day. Just who I am. But, it’s hard to not get frustrated by this team. We should be so much better than we are and I’m not seeing improvement yet.

Not much else to say, other than just win. It’s still early but it hasn’t been an encouraging start to SEC Play. Barnes has to find a way to get more from the offense.

I really think the SEC will be like this for most teams for the entire year. It is frustrating but most of the SEC plays really tough defense too. Hopefully we’ll peak at the right time.

 

[Go47]

When we are bad from 3 . . . We are REALLY bad. In wins, we shoot 37.5% from 3. In losses, we are 18%. That is a crazy huge swing. This is not a good shooting team as evidenced by how poorly they shoot from the free throw line. 14 games in . . . I don’t see it changing. We are good enough to finish in the top half of the SEC. How far we go in the NCAA tourney will be dictated by matchups (LSU is a bad matchup for us / they could beat us at home too) and how we we are shooting from 3. We will live and die by it. Most of the time when fans say that . . . They are watching a team that is much better / more consistent from 3 than the Vols.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

When we are bad from 3 . . . We are REALLY bad. In wins, we shoot 37.5% from 3. In losses, we are 18%. That is a crazy huge swing. This is not a good shooting team as evidenced by how poorly they shoot from the free throw line. 14 games in . . . I don’t see it changing. We are good enough to finish in the top half of the SEC. How far we go in the NCAA tourney will be dictated by matchups (LSU is a bad matchup for us / they could beat us at home too) and how we we are shooting from 3. We will live and die by it. Most of the time when fans say that . . . They are watching a team that is much better / more consistent from 3 than the Vols.

Don’t believe you did the math correctly.