questioning faith

#101
#101
"let us humbly commit our righteous cause to the great Lord of the Universe, who loveth righteousness and hateth iniquity. And having secured the approbation of our hearts, by a faithful and unwearied discharge of our duty to our country, let us joyfully leave our concerns in the hands of him who raiseth up and pulleth down the empires and kingdoms of the world as he pleases; and with cheerful submission to his sovereign will, devoutly say: “Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labor of the olive shall fail, and the field shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls; yet we will rejoice in the Lord, we will joy in the God of our salvation.”

John Hancock, 1774
 
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#102
#102
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person, a brother or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."

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"Every civil government is based upon some religion or philosophy of life. Education in a nation will propagate the religion of that nation. In America, the foundational religion was Christianity. And it was sown in the hearts of Americans through the home and private and public schools for centuries. Our liberty, growth, and prosperity was the result of a Biblical philosophy of life. Our continued freedom and success is dependent on our educating the youth of America in the principles of Christianity."

- Noah Webster
 
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#103
#103
Roustabout said:
I doubt it's anything new. I've read and watched endless discussions pushing the idea that the US is a Christian nation. It isn't. There is no such thing.
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Our Government was founded according to Biblical principles. That's about as close as you can come to calling something a Christian nation. Have any other major nations been founded in said manner?
 
#104
#104
I wish there wasn't suffecient cause for any believer to lose faith.
 
#105
#105
kiddiedoc said:
Our Government was founded according to Biblical principles. That's about as close as you can come to calling something a Christian nation. Have any other major nations been founded in said manner?
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You can live your live according to biblical principles and not be a christian. Happens all the time.
 
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#106
#106
kiddiedoc said:
Our Government was founded according to Biblical principles. That's about as close as you can come to calling something a Christian nation. Have any other major nations been founded in said manner?
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So fighting taxation without representation and government overthrow are Christian principles?

Oh, and destroying the native population and chattell slavery.
You have a very romantic view of history.
 
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#107
#107
kiddiedoc said:
"To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages."

- Ben Franklin, 1787, before calling for daily prayer at the Constitutional Convention
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And yet Franklin was irreligious in his personal life and considered a deist. I have no doubt he politicked religion to fan public support and nationalism.

It's irrelevant though. There is no such thing as a "Christian nation." Its contradictory to Christ and His Kingdom. You may have a nation of Christians, which the US was. And, , I'd agree that other Constitution best governs a Christian people.
 
#108
#108
Roustabout said:
And yet Franklin was irreligious in his personal life and considered a deist. I have no doubt he politicked religion to fan public support and nationalism.

It's irrelevant though. There is no such thing as a "Christian nation." Its contradictory to Christ and His Kingdom. You may have a nation of Christians, which the US was. And, , I'd agree that other Constitution best governs a Christian people.
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I think we are closer in thought than you might believe. I do believe that God's plan does involve a very systematic spread of Christianity. He uses flawed people and nations. Our history is obviously full of sin, corruption, etc, but so are we.

Our settlers and FFs were almost universally led by their Christian faith, and history provides plenty of examples of either ridiculously fortuitous events or Divine Providence. Obviously, I believe in the latter.

I didn't mean to start a debate. God is in control, and we can rest easy knowing that no matter the shortcomings of man or the current direction of our culture, the salvation of believers is assured. We should fight the good fight and "run the race set before us."
 
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#109
#109
Roustabout said:
So fighting taxation without representation and government overthrow are Christian principles?

Oh, and destroying the native population and chattell slavery.
You have a very romantic view of history.
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Yes, there is Biblical backing for the rejection of idolatrous leadership.

Slavery and native American genocide are horrible examples of us going astray.
 
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#110
#110
kiddiedoc said:
Yes, there is Biblical backing for the rejection of idolatrous leadership.

Slavery and native American genocide are horrible examples of us going astray.
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That wasnt going astray. That was wrong out of the gate.

There is evidence of God dealing with leaders only as it relates to the nation if Israel. There is no New Testament principal for political revolution or overthrow. None. In fact, the opposite is true.

If all you are saying is that many of the FFs were practicing Christians or friendly to Christianity, sure. However, that doesnt make the US a Christian nation. Individual liberty is not a Christian virtue.
 
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#111
#111
Questions which don't have answers could have been the thread title.

I think that cancer and the other random afflictions of the world would come from original sin when the nature of the world became fallen. The tools of salvation would be right action and rational behavior on which a society might be built that could develop means of preventing these random disasters and effect their own salvation.

That's my best guess.
 
#116
#116
VolunteerHillbilly said:
it's a selfish thing to say, but I had mine and that's all that matters to me.
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I did too, But it's not really being selfish, it is just that you know what you know happened to you. I would be insane if I doubted what happened to me. I can't answer for anyone else, and their judgement doesn't belong to me anyway...And I thank God for that.
 
#117
#117
Jesus said.." My kingdom is not of this world"

That is enough for me. My ruler resides in Heaven, not Washington. It was nice to have majority Christian nation to live in, but we don't now. If you really believe the gospel, you had to know this was going to happen eventually. It is just another sign. Are you going to fall in line with those whose love has waxed cold, and depart the faith because you are not the majority now? It is going to get worse. Now is when our faith is really going to be tested...Do we believe when our faith is ridiculed daily? Do we continue to be committed to the cause when we are marginalized and shunned by society? What are you going to do?

In the end all of us have to do what my old pastor when I was growing up taught us about these days.."You have to get it for yourself". It doesn't surprise me, even though it hurts, to see our nation going this way. I was told it would.
 
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#118
#118
I find it highly implausible the creator of something as mind-boggling massive, majestic, and beautiful as this universe is cares that much about a little clump of sand on the Mediterranean.....or what a handful of 18th century slave owners who didn't want to pay their taxes were doing. If so, seems like a lot of wasted creative effort on a bunch of useless stuff that obviously doesn't matter as much and we will never see or interact with anyway.

I could be wrong, I guess.
 
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#119
#119
rjd970 said:
I find it highly implausible the creator of something as mind-boggling massive, majestic, and beautiful as this universe is cares that much about a little clump of sand on the Mediterranean.....or what a handful of 18th century slave owners who didn't want to pay their taxes were doing. If so, seems like a lot of wasted creative effort on a bunch of useless stuff that obviously doesn't matter as much and we will never see or interact with anyway.

I could be wrong, I guess.
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I agree. You could be wrong.
 
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#120
#120
rjd970 said:
I find it highly implausible the creator of something as mind-boggling massive, majestic, and beautiful as this universe is cares that much about a little clump of sand on the Mediterranean.....or what a handful of 18th century slave owners who didn't want to pay their taxes were doing. If so, seems like a lot of wasted creative effort on a bunch of useless stuff that obviously doesn't matter as much and we will never see or interact with anyway.

I could be wrong, I guess.
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So you believe in a being powerful enough to create the universe but doesn't care about the creation?
 
#121
#121
volfan_89 said:
So you believe in a being powerful enough to create the universe but doesn't care about the creation?
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Answering your question as a hypothetical only... I could see that happening. The universe is mind-bogglingly vast and complex (to us anyway) so let's say a Creator set it in motion for whatever purpose. It would be conceivable for that Creator to let the massive, intricate system play out without particular regard for the tiniest nuts and bolts.

In the context of the entire universe we're not even dust mites in a pillow. It actually would seem a bit self-important for us to think a Creator should be overly concerned about our daily foibles.

Again, answering a hypothetical question, not trying to impugn or judge anyone's faith.
 
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#123
#123
Roustabout said:
Really? Ok, show me gravity.

The point is you believe in all kinds of things based on faith. You believe in the laws of logic. You believe, on faith, that the universe you live in is intelligible and that the laws that govern it are uniform. We could provide a long list. And you couldn't even know any of this if it weren't for God. Math is evidence of his mind.
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Mighty big assertion there.....how about you prove it?
 
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