questioning faith

#26
#26
kunsanvol said:
Some great answers here. I thank each of you. I really do. I am a believer. I am. I just have questions I guess I'll never really know the answer to. I guess all i can try to do is be a good person and help people the best I can. Except Gator fans. They can kiss my butt.
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This really is the key to happiness, IMO.
 
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#27
#27
joevol33 said:
There are indeed moments in life that cause one to question "how could a loving God". I get that throwed at me a lot, but on the flip side, I've received his mercy more than I deserve. After losing basically everything Job said this, "man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble". Jesus while on the cross uttered the words, "my God my God, why hast thou forsaken me". Like mentioned earlier, this world is not meant to be our trouble free, peaceful ever after. Of course it's hard to watch a situation you can't understand, and not wonder "why God?" I have a sick wife who I've watched suffer to the point I've cried like a baby before. I do not understand it, I've had moments I've been angry about it, questioned God why, asked what's the point. I will tell you what I've seen dealing with our situation, I've seen my wife stick with Romans 8:28: where the Bible says "we know all things work together for the good". I've see people around here come to my wife who we're dealing with health issues, and tell her they need her help because they know she's suffered a lot, but held on to her faith. I've seen people reach out to her on Facebook asking to talk, because they know what all she's went through, and she's been an inspiration to them. Of course satan will get in your head during times you don't understand and encourage you to doubt, and people who don't believe will choose those times to bring up "why would God ", I just try to simply trust him over what I feel, or others may say. Simply put, faith.
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Praying for you and your wife joevol33.
 
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#29
#29
Roustabout said:
God is sovereign. The Bible says Satan is the god of this world. God has a determined will and a permissive will.
Why he permits evil and suffering is the most asked question about Christianity. It is also one of the most detailed in terms of discussion and answer.

If you want a thorough study on the matter I would recommend two books, The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis and Where is God When it Hurts?, by Philip Yancey.
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It does?
 
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#30
#30
Would recommend "The Problem of Pain"...one of CS Lewis' lesser known works.
 
#31
#31
kunsanvol said:
Some great answers here. I thank each of you. I really do. I am a believer. I am. I just have questions I guess I'll never really know the answer to. I guess all i can try to do is be a good person and help people the best I can. Except Gator fans. They can kiss my butt.
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Yes. I wrestled with a lot of these same questions and I no longer have faith. I think you need to arrive at a set of beliefs that you can reconcile so that you don't drive yourself crazy. But the key to it all, no matter where you arrive, is to be a good person.

I have never been happier. If there is a God and I treat his children with compassion, i feel confident he will be happy with me. If faith is the difference between hell and salvation, I don't want to believe in that God. There are so many virtues that are better than faith, IMO.
 
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#34
#34
Trudy Harris, a hospice nurse and author of two books on death-bed visions and near-death experiences (Glimpses of Heaven: True Stories of Hope and Peace at the End of Life's Journey and More Glimpses of Heaven: Inspiring True Stories of Hope and Peace at the End of Life's Journey) offers a perspective that may be of interest to the original poster. She said that “We always said, as nurses, that you can become a hospice nurse and not believe in God, but you could never stay a hospice nurse and not believe in God.” In short, you will witness far too many things through your dying patients that defy rational explanation and that would make it utterly impossible to question the existence of the Almighty. For a brief interview with her on this matter, fast-forward to roughly the 6:00 mark of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCCa39kUTUU.

From my perspective, the only enduring question about God is the degree to which he chooses to directly intervene in the course of human events. I personally adhere to the belief that God transcends all theology and that it is quite simply far beyond our comprehension to understand where, when and why he does or does not alter the course of a person’s life or, more broadly, human history. I also personally do not believe in a capricious God who favors one people over all others. I believe that God has revealed himself to all peoples throughout history, each in accordance with their understanding.

As for the power of prayer, yes, it is very real. However, sometimes the only thing it changes is how you immediately feel after communication with the Creator. Other times, the answer, even if we aren’t consciously aware of it, is “No” or “it is not yet time.” Life often places before us an endless succession of trials and tribulations from which there is no immediate solution and prayer affords us, at minimum, a means of finding inner peace in the midst of overwhelming pain and soul-testing adversity. Perhaps the strongest evidence for the power of prayer comes from those who are on the brink of eternity but who have returned briefly from a death-bed vision or near-death experience. In so doing, they often report that “I cannot cross over until you stop praying for [my physical recovery]. The strength of your prayers is holding me to this plane.”

I wish that I could provide a definitive reference for the paraphrased quotation cited immediately above, but, alas, I cannot. I have seen remarkably similar comments, however, in the literature or programming on this topic, so it apparently is not an unusual aspect of NDEs reported by those who return to this world.
 
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#36
#36
A few thoughts on suffering and God's plan:

The world is cursed not by God's choice, but by ours. We were given free will by his divine providence and love for us. We chose sin, and the world has been cursed since the original fall. However, God loves man and wants us to be forgiven and justified, so that we can spend forever in His presence. After all, we were created in His image, to be His worksmanship, to share His love, and for His glory.

We can not always understand His means, but "all things work together for the glory of God." Suffering exists as a means to bring us closer to Him, teach us reliance on Him, and to fulfill His plan. He is, and always has been, in control. THAT is our reassurance. We were never promised prosperity in this world. In fact, we were promised trials. The purpose is for our redemption.

A few scriptures:

"Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” (Exodus 4:11).

“I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7).

“…and if children, then heirs – heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.”
(Romans 8:17)

Speaking of the man born blind:
“…this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.” (John 9:3).

Romans 8 is a great resource:
"18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

Romans 5:1-5
"“Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in
hope of the glory of God. 3More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces
endurance, 4and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5and hope does not put us
to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given
to us.”

***

The subject of suffering can really only be understood when we gain an understanding of the fallen world and an acceptance of His redeeming grace. The larger picture is one of beauty -- despite our catastrophic decisions that separate us from Him, He has provided a way for us to be redeemed and freed of the consequence of our sin.

I pray that you will read, pray, and discuss with a pastor or elder. We have all questioned and worried and been confused. That's our human mind, and He knows us. There are answers, and when we accept them, we really gain the faith that we need: reliance in His divine grace, love, and providence.
 
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#37
#37
kunsanvol said:
Some great answers here. I thank each of you. I really do. I am a believer. I am. I just have questions I guess I'll never really know the answer to. I guess all i can try to do is be a good person and help people the best I can. Except Gator fans. They can kiss my butt.
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I guess the whole point of faith is choosing to maintain your beliefs even in the face of such nagging, unanswerable questions; that's what it's for. You choose to have faith or you choose not to.

People on either side can present all their arguments but ultimately you have to go with your own judgment. And despite what anyone on either side may tell you, they'll never prove you wrong, whichever way you go. It's a metaphysical question so any answer requires faith to accept.

But I can't see how you'll ever go wrong by being as good and thoughtful a person as you can. The world will be an incrementally better place for it and your life will be more enriched.

As for your earlier question about prayer, I've never dismissed it and I'm not even Christian. Who's to say there's not some effect created by many people directing focused positive thoughts toward someone or something, no matter their intent? In times of need I welcome it, even if just for knowing people care.
 
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#38
#38
kunsanvol said:
I am not here to start any bashing of believers vs non-believers. I have some things on my mind and want the opinions of others who are believers.

I am a believer. I always have been and I always will be. But honestly, I'm not sure what I believe and what I don't because some things just don't add up with me.

Does prayer actually work? I've always been taught that God controls all, and knows what will happen to each of us. Our birth, our lives, our death..everything. So, with that being said, if a young person get cancer, and it is God's will that he will die from it, what purpose does prayer serve? If enough people pray, does God change his mind? If not enough people pray, does God decide to let the person die?

If God is all powerful and all good, how can childhood cancer be explained? Why would He allow His people to suffer? I'm told God loves us more than we can understand...even more than we love our own children. I know that I had the ability to stop my child from suffering, I sure would. So if God supposedly loves him more than I do, why allow him to suffer?

Things just don't add up sometimes to me
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Paradoxical questions/conclusions tend to illuminate problems in the premises (either explicit or implicit).
 
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#39
#39
n_huffhines said:
I'm not sure what this means in relation to what I said? Faith has value because it's indicative of other virtues?
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I took it to mean that if you are a **** human being, it's hard to justify yourself as a man of faith. Or something along those lines.
 
#41
#41
kunsanvol said:
No. Im looking for answers. And with most Christians, when I ask tough questions, I get shunned. Which pushes me away further. Sorry for bugging you.
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God doesn't want a child to die of cancer and have the parents suffer. Where have you read that? Bad things happen. God gives peace to a grieving family. Comfort to a child who may be suffering.
 
#42
#42
kunsanvol said:
Some great answers here. I thank each of you. I really do. I am a believer. I am. I just have questions I guess I'll never really know the answer to. I guess all i can try to do is be a good person and help people the best I can. Except Gator fans. They can kiss my butt.
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I struggled with the purpose of prayer for a long time. But the Bible is pretty clear, the purpose of prayer is for our own understanding and not asking God to change his mind or anything. The human brain is simply unable to cpmprehend somethings, so we need little answer or grace to cope, we will never get a full explanation.
Their are many examples in the bible explaning this. Many of Davids prayers are for his own understanding and even in when Jesus prayed just before his death.
An example know is a person is being told to donate a certain sum of money to Houston efforts, but thinks they cant afford it. In that instance a person would pray for stronger faith to trust that God will provide etc.

Hope that helps.
 
#43
#43
Roustabout said:
2 Cor. 4:4
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This seems figurative and I don't think it's even trying to say Satan is the god of this world. I think it is talking about worldliness.

I don't know why I was expecting to find a literal verse. God is the God of this world. He made it, right?

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
 
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#44
#44
n_huffhines said:
Yes. I wrestled with a lot of these same questions and I no longer have faith. I think you need to arrive at a set of beliefs that you can reconcile so that you don't drive yourself crazy. But the key to it all, no matter where you arrive, is to be a good person.

I have never been happier. If there is a God and I treat his children with compassion, i feel confident he will be happy with me. If faith is the difference between hell and salvation, I don't want to believe in that God. There are so many virtues that are better than faith, IMO.
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Faith, in and of itself, is not a virtue.
 
#45
#45
n_huffhines said:
This seems figurative and I don't think it's even trying to say Satan is the god of this world. I think it is talking about worldliness.

I don't know why I was expecting to find a literal verse. God is the God of this world. He made it, right?

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
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God made the world. The question was, is controlling everything. My point is that God is sovereign, and within this He permits and allows things that He doesn't specifically decree.
Nothing happens outside of His will, but not all things happen of His will.
 
#46
#46
Huff and Roust, just a thought. Is your debate and the ensuing posts helpful to OP? If not, table for another opportunity (an inevitability). If yes, ignore my buttinski and carry on. TIA.
 
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#47
#47
GAVol said:
True faith really doesn't exist in the absence of other virtues.
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I think this is alright as a very general proposition. However, as soon as a person tries to apply it to anyone, including themselves, they are substituting their judgment for God's judgment. For all any of us know, Hitler was saved and is in heaven right now. That thought offends the sensibilities of just about everyone, but that is only because we as fallible human beings are not capable of infinite mercy.
 
#48
#48
McDad said:
Huff and Roust, just a thought. Is your debate and the ensuing posts helpful to OP? If not, table for another opportunity (an inevitability). If yes, ignore my buttinski and carry on. TIA.
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$1.00

Interesting comments in this thread. I'm always fascinated by opinions on this subject.
 
#50
#50
LouderVol said:
he loves us enough to give us free will. Free will comes with consequences. I don't see how one can expect God to give us free will and yet remove all the bad? Look at the helicopter parents and participation trophies galore, is that really making the kid any better? while it is doesn't perfectly explain things away I would say every bit of evil in this world is brought forth by mankind itself. and I would say the vast majority of it comes from when we go against his will. I have a hard time blaming God when my sins come back to haunt me, or even worse someone else. Childhood cancer is difficult to deal with, but there is still an opportunity for goodness there. It gets parents and family to appreciate things, brings together communities. It will never replace a life time of love; but without death we would not appreciate life.

I believe prayer works, in the Bible there are plenty of stories of God changing his mind based on human intervention. Him not destroying the town if there was 100, 10, 1 good people there. Jesus's miracles, the power of ones faith saving people. why? because God loves us, even being all powerful doesn't mean he can't change. Don't fall into logical fallacies. ie: If God is all powerful can he make a rock that is too big for him to move? Neither answer provides an outcome that actually addresses the issue. Humans will never fully understand God or why stuff happens. Blaming God for our lack of understanding is short sighted. I have found prayer much more effective when instead of asking for God to remove a hardship I instead ask for the strength to overcome it.

and not saying anything about you in particular OP, but how many people just pray AT God? How many stop to listen, or pray for what he may want? "Thy will be done." People want to wield prayer as a magical wand instead of listening.

Prayer and good deeds are their own reward. even if they don't accomplish what we want, so what? When did mankind become the center of the universe? What makes us more important than God. Where in the bible does it say that if you pray hard enough all of your struggles disappear? When you were a child and asked something of your parent and they said "no" you couldn't understand the why of it usually. but as an adult you can see the why of it. I doubt any of us come to the point where we understand the why of God.

faith is never supposed to be a fixed thing, where suddenly everything makes sense or you have all the answers. It is a growing relationship. Like marriage. "Do you love your wife now after 30 years of marriage as much as you did as when you first married?""No, I love her more" Our lives are an instant to God, he knows us more fully than we will ever know ourselves, but in our brief time we can never understand all that is God. And if we don't talk with God, again not just AT God, how can we understand him better?

just my thoughts.
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Excellent...People have got to understand that this life is the illusion, the eternal is reality. God sees life and death in completely different terms than we do. And to show his love and compassion in fullest form he sent his own son into this world. He didn't live a cushy life, he was born in a barn, he didn't live a healthy and stress free life, he was hated, persecuted and tortured to death. He proved that he was willing to suffer like we suffer. Jesus showed us what being obedient to, and trusting in God's will is all about.."Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the Father. For consider him who endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied, and faint in your minds" Hebrews chapter 12 verse 2-3.

God never promised us a bed of roses or a life without travail here, what he did promise us that if we would overcome our disobedient nature, and trust in him, that we would be made whole in eternity. "Our light affliction, which is for a moment, worketh for us a FAR more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" another good one "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory which shall be revealed in us"..I don't know what kind of doctrine of faith the OP has been taught, but real faith is trusting in God's promise of eternal life.
 
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