NIL final thoughts

#51
#51
It's the majority (Gorsuch) opinion that carries the day, no? The concurring opinion (Kavanagh) could not have been supported by more than 4 justices, else it would be the majority opinion, no?
No. Chief Justice Roberts decides who writes the majority opinion. It was a 9-0 decision in Alston. Gorsuch was picked.

Had someone disagreed with Gorsuch or Kavanaugh, they could've written their own opinion agreeing with the verdict, but disagreeing with Gorsuch or Kavanaugh's reasoning on the verdict.

None of the Justices disagreed with the ruling and apparently none disagreed with Gorsuch or Kavanaugh. The NCAA is cooked and the student-athlete idea is likely going to lose the the employee-athlete idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: S.C. OrangeMan
#53
#53
When the schools or the NCAA used name, image, and/or likeness to advertise their brand and denied that same use to the individuals, it was illegal. Both the O'Bannon and Alston case decisions affirmed that was illegal.

Tennessee is smart to lead the charge in pushing back against that practice.

When has Tennessee used the name, image and/or likeness of a player while said player was in school to advertise the Tennessee brand? To me it has always been just the opposite - the player was using the "Tennessee brand" to advertise their ability.
 
#54
#54
There was no such intent on the part of the collectives. What anyone thought doesn't matter. Clearly what matters is that NIL is legal in its present form.

Then you are saying that the "collectives" are "boosters" for the school and if that is the case it is possible that the recruiting violations have occurred.
 
#55
#55
The NIL collective COULD do that if they were actually part of university, but without that it doesn't work.

Imagine trying to enforce a "you have to stay at an entity not connected to this collective and have performance bonuses at that job not connected to me."

A LOT OF THINGS COULD AFFECT THAT SITUATION WHICH THE NIL HAS NO CONTROL OVER. The school might decide it doesn't want the player anymore. A coach might suck making performance bonuses impossible for the player. The player might get injured.

What you want is pro players control without calling them pro players. You want contracts, performance incentives, etc BUT you still want them to be "student athletes" legally.

Here's an idea: how about admitting you WANT the players to sit down and shut up and entertain you like the old days and have no control over nor profit from their college career except the old dirty money they got.

Just admit you don't like that athletes aren't second class Americans and deserve rights. You want the schools to have the power, like they did for years, and control what the athletes can make and where they can attend. You don't want them having the rights of other students.

Just be honest.

The SEC needs to stop with the commercials then - you know the ones - pointing out what THEY ACTUALLY GET FROM THE SCHOOL for playing a sport. They profit from their college career in the following ways -

- Paid for education including room and board, food, et al.
- Free advertising every time they play
- Free training and coaching
- Free travel and accommodations to the games
- And probably lots of other stuff a non-athlete has to pay for

Stop acting like they get nothing! That is not true. If they use the above to their advantage, regardless of whether they go pro or not, they will have made connections that will set them up to be successful and they will not be burdened with the hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans like a non-athlete student ends up with.

They are NOT second-class citizens and never have been. They get way more than any non-athlete student gets.
 
#57
#57
The SEC needs to stop with the commercials then - you know the ones - pointing out what THEY ACTUALLY GET FROM THE SCHOOL for playing a sport. They profit from their college career in the following ways -

- Paid for education including room and board, food, et al.
- Free advertising every time they play
- Free training and coaching
- Free travel and accommodations to the games
- And probably lots of other stuff a non-athlete has to pay for

Stop acting like they get nothing! That is not true. If they use the above to their advantage, regardless of whether they go pro or not, they will have made connections that will set them up to be successful and they will not be burdened with the hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans like a non-athlete student ends up with.

They are NOT second-class citizens and never have been. They get way more than any non-athlete student gets.
Never acted like the athletes got nothing. The scholarship has been valuable but the "dirty money" and now the NIL proves the athletes ARE AND HAVE BEEN WORTH MORE TO THE PROGRAM THAN JUST THE VALUE OF THE SCHOLARSHIP.

You may try to refute that they've been given money ilegally and now legally for decades, as you wish, but you can't.

So shut up about the worth of the scholarship. Yes, it's valuable, but no it's not valuable enough to cover the athlete's value to the program. For God's Sake, man, Nico is a millionaire.

Tell me, if the scholarship is valuable enough, why exactly is Nico a millionaire?
 
#61
#61
The NCAA's sports model is illegal under federal law. So says the concurring SCOTUS opinion in the Alston case.

Your contention is a false dilemma frosted with non sequiturs.

Kavanaugh compared college athletics to a regular business. It of course anything like a regular business or industry. I have read that non-profits are not exempt from anti-trust laws. Whatever the deal with the laws, college athletics is ****** up and stupid right now.

There is this notion that football players are more special than other student-athletes because football makes huge money. I say that is bull$hit. They're just lucky to play a sport that is popular and is televised and gets good ratings. They're no more special than rowers or swimmers or any other athletes. The first thing the conferences and schools should do is greatly expand the scholarship limits for non-revenue sports. Most non-revenue student-athletes are on partial scholarship==maybe 1/4 or 1/2 of a full scholly. That's BS. I'm not sure why anybody would want college football to become professional football--but that's where we're at.

And let's stop saying that the NCAA and the schools got "greedy." It's stupid. The money is plowed back into the programs--all the athletic programs. Nobody is getting rich off of football but the head coaches--who are real employees. Paying huge sums of money to high-school prospects to sign with your school is embarrassing and corrupt--only in America.
 
#63
#63
Every time a game comes on TV.

Almost every game in every sport is televised or streamed nowadays. Same with many high schools Pay 'em all, people--and don't forget the band and the cheerleaders: They need some cash, too! Nobody should ever agree to be interviewed by a radio program or TV program or network now either, or allow themselves to be photographed--ask to be paid for your NIL!
 
#64
#64
Almost every game in every sport is televised or streamed nowadays. Same with many high schools Pay 'em all, people--and don't forget the band and the cheerleaders: They need some cash, too! Nobody should ever agree to be interviewed by a radio program or TV program or network now either, or allow themselves to be photographed--ask to be paid for your NIL!
You don’t have to like it or understand it, but it’s true. That logo gets way more valuable when we win and get exposure. I’m not saying it’s bad. Just pointing out the obvious answer to an absurd question.
 
#65
#65
Kavanaugh compared college athletics to a regular business. It of course anything like a regular business or industry. I have read that non-profits are not exempt from anti-trust laws. Whatever the deal with the laws, college athletics is ****** up and stupid right now.

There is this notion that football players are more special than other student-athletes because football makes huge money. I say that is bull$hit. They're just lucky to play a sport that is popular and is televised and gets good ratings. They're no more special than rowers or swimmers or any othere first thing the conferences and schools should do is greatly expand the scholarship limits for non-revenue sports. Most non-revenue student-athletes are on partial scholarship==maybe 1/4 or 1/2 of a full scholly. That's BS. I'm not sure why anybody would want college football to become professional football--but that's where we're at.

And let's stop saying that the NCAA and the schools got "greedy." It's stupid. The money is plowed back into the programs--all the athletic programs. Nobody is getting rich off of football but the head coaches--who are real employees. Paying huge sums of money to high-school prospects to sign with your school is embarrassing and corrupt--only in America.
No one is saying: "This is good. I can't wait until college football turns into pro ball. That will be great!"

You can rant that it sucks and I'll agree all day. You can say it's bad for the athletes in the long run and I'll agree all day. You can say it's screwed up and I'll agree all day.

The courts are dismembering the NCAA AND UT/the state of Tennessee are among the leaders of those suing the NCAA into oblivion.

The fans are actually at odds with the school and the state in this. We're wanting it all to slow down and every chance the school or state gets, they file or join a lawsuit accusing the NCAA of violating Antitrust Law. The NCAA, meanwhile, would love to restrict NIL and transfers.

It's a very bizarre time to be a Vol.

None of this is good nor pleasant, but it's on fire right in front of us and UT and TN are actively fanning the flames.
 
#66
#66
When has Tennessee used the name, image and/or likeness of a player while said player was in school to advertise the Tennessee brand? To me it has always been just the opposite - the player was using the "Tennessee brand" to advertise their ability.
That's ludicrous. Here's an example:
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20240317-015206.png
    Screenshot_20240317-015206.png
    358.7 KB · Views: 0
#67
#67
Kavanaugh compared college athletics to a regular business. It of course anything like a regular business or industry. I have read that non-profits are not exempt from anti-trust laws. Whatever the deal with the laws, college athletics is ****** up and stupid right now.

There is this notion that football players are more special than other student-athletes because football makes huge money. I say that is bull$hit. They're just lucky to play a sport that is popular and is televised and gets good ratings. They're no more special than rowers or swimmers or any other athletes. The first thing the conferences and schools should do is greatly expand the scholarship limits for non-revenue sports. Most non-revenue student-athletes are on partial scholarship==maybe 1/4 or 1/2 of a full scholly. That's BS. I'm not sure why anybody would want college football to become professional football--but that's where we're at.

And let's stop saying that the NCAA and the schools got "greedy." It's stupid. The money is plowed back into the programs--all the athletic programs. Nobody is getting rich off of football but the head coaches--who are real employees. Paying huge sums of money to high-school prospects to sign with your school is embarrassing and corrupt--only in America.
You got that entirely wrong. Football players bring tens of millions of dollars to UT every year. Show me another UT sport that does that...there are none. What do you think the University runs on? That's right, it runs in money.

What is corrupt is the NCAA's antitrust collusion that kept college athletes from getting fair market value for decades. What is corrupt is trying to interfere in a private business relationship between two two other parties. What is corrupt is trying to tell anyone else that they can't be edit from the fruits of their labor.

What is embarrassing us anyone that defends the NCAA',s illegal restraint of trade.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VolArmy74
#68
#68
No one is saying: "This is good. I can't wait until college football turns into pro ball. That will be great!"

You can rant that it sucks and I'll agree all day. You can say it's bad for the athletes in the long run and I'll agree all day. You can say it's screwed up and I'll agree all day.

The courts are dismembering the NCAA AND UT/the state of Tennessee are among the leaders of those suing the NCAA into oblivion.

The fans are actually at odds with the school and the state in this. We're wanting it all to slow down and every chance the school or state gets, they file or join a lawsuit accusing the NCAA of violating Antitrust Law. The NCAA, meanwhile, would love to restrict NIL and transfers.

It's a very bizarre time to be a Vol.

None of this is good nor pleasant, but it's on fire right in front of us and UT and TN are actively fanning the flames.
False Generalization... "The fans". That is easily debunked by actually paying attention to the decades in this forum

The fire was the NCAA's illegal rules.
The state of Tennessee and the University are the ones actually extinguishing those flames.
It's GREAT to be a Tennessee Voo and it's GREAT to see UT leafing the fight against the NCAA's illegal and corrupt business model.
 
#69
#69
Then you are saying that the "collectives" are "boosters" for the school and if that is the case it is possible that the recruiting violations have occurred.
Not at all. It doesn't matter what the NCAA calls the people that pay athletes for endorsements.

NIL is legal. The Greenville judge hit the NCAA with an injunction that prevents them from interfering with NIL in any way.

The entire NCAA sports model is illegal, per Justice Kavanaugh's concurring opinion. I'm the Alston case.

The NCAA is toast on this issue.
 
#70
#70
I'm reposting my thoughts from another thread and I know I'm beating a dead horse, but this was got me thinking about differences in college and pros in response on the other thread. We all have opinions and I certainly respect them, and we all will not agree on everything, that's what makes VOLNATION blog site so great. I've been on here for a long time myself and I've been a UT fan for 53 years. I've seen great players during that span give their all for Tennessee and that is what makes me love all sports in college. (Reggie White, Condredge Holloway, Dale Carter, Peyton Manning, Bernard King, Grant Williams, Monica Abbot, Candice Parker, Jamal Lewis, Casey Clausen, Tee Martin, Eric Ainge, Leonard Little, Al Wilson, Heath Shular, Tony Robinson, Alan Cockrell...... All those players and many more came to UT AND GAVE THEIR ALL AS VFLs. That's why I love college sports and not so much pro. I will say, I'm not much of a pro fan not near the level I am for college. I'll take a day off from work to go to a UT game. I'll check my phone for my favorite pro team score. That's the difference.

Below is my response from the other thread question:
The Old NCAA rules as you put them, became an issue only when Ed O'Bannon realized that he could be paid for the use of his NIL. I'm sorry it's not federal law breaking what's happening in college athletics. If you ever read, then you would understand that the intent for NIL based on the Courts ruling of they said laws you are claiming broken was full cost of attendance at the school, Scholarships for Athletes, living expenses, and anything that the NCAA was not covering already. Football players were making on top of all that before this debacle an average prior to 2020 $30,000 to $40,000 each on top of all other expenses paid. O'Bannon also won from the Supreme Court $42.2 million for fees and costs as his case went nearly 10 years. He did not win all that money because of NIL itself! Read below the following based on the court ruling:

The trial against the NCAA lasted from June 9 to June 27, 2014. Final written closing statements were submitted on July 10.

On August 8, 2014, Wilken ruled that the NCAA's long-held practice of barring payments to athletes violated antitrust laws. She ordered that schools should be allowed to offer full cost-of-attendance scholarships to athletes, covering cost-of-living expenses that were not currently part of NCAA scholarships. Wilken also ruled that college be permitted to place as much as $5,000 into a trust for each athlete per year of eligibility.

The NCAA subsequently appealed the ruling, arguing that Wilken did not properly consider NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma. In that case, the NCAA was denied control of college football television rights. The Supreme Court denied the NCAA's appeal. The NCAA was also ordered to pay the plaintiffs $42.2 million in fees and costs.


So your quote of the "Old NCAA" should simply be providing additional funds to Student Athletes when their NIL is used outside of normal play on the field. I.E. name in a video game, commercial, billboard, jersey sell, .......It was never intended (just 3.5 years ago) for a school to pay a player millions, pick up $300,000 cars at dealerships, tampering, transferring for more, demanding anything from a coach etc....I'm not sure what more explanation you need but COLLEGE FOOTBALL is not and was not and should not be for this.

I don't care if NICO leads Tennesse to 3 straight NCAA Championships, paying him $8,000,000 is absolutely ridiculous and it started his senior year in high school and not even college. THAT IS F'ED UP! The argument that coaches can do it is absolutely stupid! The coach is a professional who HAS GONE TO COLLEGE AND is not enrolled in classes at the university and is paid to do a JOB! If another job is willing to pay him or her more, then because they are professionals, they have a right to barter that salary opportunity. This is the same as you can do with your career and anyone who is WORKING. The Student Athlete should come to the university because that's where they want to get their education and play for a school they love and want to be at. They should not be coming to that school because they will get paid more. That's the NFL a PAID job for professionals who have finished college and are now looking to expand on what they have learned and trained for.
IT'S COLLEGE AND COLLEGE FOOTBALL. IT'S NOT THE NFL AND PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL!


College football may survive, but as we know and love, it will never be the same unless major changes happen very quickly. If people cannot realize what coaches, and leaders, "NOT KIDS" are saying, then there is no hope, and it will die! MONEY AND GREED ARE AT THE ROOT!
The collectives are paying the athletess, not the schools AD fund.
Very similar to how the rich boosters paid for top athletes in the dark when your romantisized version of pre-NIL NCAA existed.

IMO, if the athletes were limited to $50k or less, the vast majority of those so opposed to the new rules of NIL would be totally ok with it. Why does the fact its much more money for some bother folks?
 
  • Like
Reactions: swampfoxfan
#71
#71
IF athletes were paid for the use of their name image or likeness and not paid to au football there would be no problems now. But it is no longer amateur sports, not at all.
For 8 mil I would expect to see Nico on tv advertising something even dishsoap. I should be able to buy a hoodie with a pic of Cam Seldon . Or somebody else selling insurance. But no images, likeness or names are being bought. It's simply pay for play, no NIL involved.
 
#72
#72
The collectives are paying the athletess, not the schools AD fund.
Very similar to how the rich boosters paid for top athletes in the dark when your romantisized version of pre-NIL NCAA existed.

IMO, if the athletes were limited to $50k or less, the vast majority of those so opposed to the new rules of NIL would be totally ok with it. Why does the fact its much more money for some bother folks?
Bc some people are jealous. They work their whole lives and never see that kind of money but a high school kid gets millions right out the gate. Some are old and just want to complain about how the game has been ruined even though the game was ruined along time ago if we’re talking about money ruining it. They were fine with scraps before while Bama has bought a dynasty worth of titles in the era before NIL. Mostly they just don’t think it’s right bc they don’t think it’s the way it should be done. Nevermind most don’t understand NIL in the first place nor the money that is made off college football these days. Most fans think it’s their sport moreso than the kids that play it; how dare they change “my sport” how dare they profit from it!
 
#73
#73
The collectives are paying the athletess, not the schools AD fund.
Very similar to how the rich boosters paid for top athletes in the dark when your romantisized version of pre-NIL NCAA existed.

IMO, if the athletes were limited to $50k or less, the vast majority of those so opposed to the new rules of NIL would be totally ok with it. Why does the fact its much more money for some bother folks?
Much of this is control, not money, which bothers people.

You'll note in Saban's explanation of talking with Miss Terry, he talked about "not being able to help them become better....."

Basically Nick was saying he didn't control them anymore and they had their own money and power.

The big problem is power and control, not money. People hate losing money but they REALLY hate losing power.
 
#74
#74
The "good ole days" of player loyalty to university were more often than not a fiction, a façade created by rules prohibiting players from transferring at will. For decades upon decades. The players have always been self-interested. That's just human nature.
I have no doubt that's true. I never tried to make the argument that the love we have as fans for Tennessee and the VFL's that helped build this program was necessarily reciprocated by all of those VFL's. But I advocate first and foremost for us and OUR experience as fans and the argument I was making is as a common fan, I can't support the idea of unlimited transfers at no penalty. Unlike NIL, that does negatively alter part of the fan experience we previously enjoyed for so many years. It potentially creates an annual "revolving door" of players that fans can never endear themselves to like they could in the past. As I said previously, under this model, it basically turns college football into minor league baseball and thats a sad thought. I'm sure many here attend Smokies games. Can you honestly name any of the players from season to season? That's what I fear is going to happen to college football if players can just come and go at will. I supported the one-time no penalty transfer rule change. I thought that was fair. But saying players can just leave as many schools as they want in the 3-4 years theyre in college at no penalty whatsoever is unreasonable and not good for the fan experience IMO. Therefore I don't support it. I think it's a terrible policy for the game and the fans.
 
Last edited:
#75
#75
I have no doubt that's true. I never tried to make the argument that the love we have as fans for Tennessee and the VFL's that helped build this program was necessarily reciprocated by all of those VFL's. But I advocate first and foremost for us and OUR experience as fans and the argument I was making is as a common fan, I can't support the idea of unlimited transfers at no penalty. Unlike NIL, that does negatively alter part of the fan experience we previously enjoyed for so many years. It potentially creates an annual "revolving door" of players that fans can never endear themselves to like they could in the past. As I said previously, under this model, it basically turns college football into minor league baseball and thats a sad thought. I'm sure many here attend Smokies games. Can you honestly name any of the players from season to season? That's what I fear is going to happen to college football if players can just come and go at will. I supported the one-time no penalty transfer rule change. I thought that was fair. But saying players can just leave as many schools as they want in the 3-4 years theyre in college at no penalty whatsoever is unreasonable not good for the fan experience IMO. Therefore I don't support it.
I'll agree it's not good for the fans but let's look at this reasonably.

Coach Heupel puts in lots of time recruiting, planning, studying film, coaching, managing, etc and players put in a lot of time studying film, learning plays, conditioning, rote practicing, maximizing techniques, etc.

As fans, ours is the least investment in UT athletics. We aren't really in a position to expect the game should do more than entertain us for a few hours each week.

Those playing and coaching are far more invested in the process so the big payoff should be their needs, not ours.
 

VN Store



Back
Top