Middleton?

#101
#101
GetYouSomeofThat said:
There are many many nfl players who cheated/struggled their way through college...yes NFL football is more cerebral than high school football but getting through academic classes in no way prepares the player for the NFL..

They are prepared by the coaching/teaching of football.
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You’re missing the point.
 
#102
#102
LittleVol said:
Floyd Mayweather can't even read at a 5th grade level but he's maybe the best boxer ever...
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You are either really young or a prisoner of the moment. Mayweather has a great manager that keeps him from any real challenge.

I'm an Ali guy myself, but take heavyweights out of it. Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray, Jake Lamotta just to name a few were light years ahead of Mayweather. The kid can run with the best of them, but he is not the best boxer by far.

*steps off soapbox
 
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#103
#103
jonnon111 said:
You are either really young or a prisoner of the moment. Mayweather has a great manager that keeps him from any real challenge.

I'm an Ali guy myself, but take heavyweights out of it. Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray, Jake Lamotta just to name a few were light years ahead of Mayweather. The kid can run with the best of them, but he is not the best boxer by far.

*steps off soapbox
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I don't watch boxing, but doesn't he literally "run" from his opponents this entire match?
 
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#104
#104
jonnon111 said:
You are either really young or a prisoner of the moment. Mayweather has a great manager that keeps him from any real challenge.

I'm an Ali guy myself, but take heavyweights out of it. Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray, Jake Lamotta just to name a few were light years ahead of Mayweather. The kid can run with the best of them, but he is not the best boxer by far.

*steps off soapbox
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For some strange reason, I always liked Roberto Duran, growing up.
GBO!!
 
#105
#105
volunteerfan said:
Are you really gonna give me the education for play defense?
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It is a FACT... defense or not. Want to pay them? Fine. Pay them $25k per year and let them pay for their own college. The $100K plus perks is low end. Lots of colleges and particularly the private ones are much more. Plus MANY kids who would otherwise have NO SHOT at a big name university get a degree worth more than they otherwise would.

And the thing you keep avoiding is that NO ONE forces any of these kids to sign their LOI. It is COMPLETELY up to them. It is a FREELY MADE AGREEMENT. IIRC, less than 1% will ever play in the NFL so if that's really their motivation.... then that's on them.

Mookie betts signed a $900k minor league contract straight out of hs. Compared to the 100k education and the money that big time college football rakes in, that education is peanuts.
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And if Mookie Betts were a football player ready to enter the NFL right out of HS... no one could stop him. If Mookie Betts blows out a knee then he's on his own. Even if he has money for education, he won't get into a school above his actual qualifying scores. He won't have an army of tutors to ensure he gets his degree.

If the nfl didn’t pretty much make kids play three years of college ball then tua wouldn’t be where he is now.
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The NFL does no such thing.... any more than the Air National Guard made my kids sign up to pay for college.

He would’ve been the number 1 pick in the draft with a guaranteed $24 million contract.
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So if there was a developmental league... no one would get injured playing in it?

If a kid is good enough and a nfl team will take him then he should be able to go and earn real money.
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And... as I've pointed out several times... the kids can right up to the point where they VOLUNTARILY sign a LOI.

Tell where else in this country is a man not allowed to earn money at a job that they are well qualified to do?
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LOL... try everywhere. Do you really think every person capable and available to fill upper management roles makes it? Do you really believe that some of them don't have their careers de-railed by illness or problems?

When I graduated college and ROTC, I requested Army active duty. The army was in a draw down at that time so slots were tight. I knew what the scores of my peers were. I know for a fact that several "preferred" demographic cadets were selected over me though my scores were significantly better. One white guy who looked Hispanic with significantly lower scores was chosen.

Life's not fair. You should NEVER expect it to be fair. You can't make it be fair.

The NFL has made a choice that they are COMPLETELY ENTITLED TO MAKE... and I happen to believe it is a good one. The players are not slaves. They ARE compensated for playing and getting an education with high residual value. Some are even able to get a Masters while under scholarship.

Sorry but you are WAY off on this one... I notice you didn't try to play the capitalism thing again. Capitalism is about the freedom to make economic choices. YOU are the one trying to take that away from the NFL. Don't like the way they do it? Start your own league. The USFL didn't make it... but they're the reason there is any allowance to leave early.
 
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#107
#107
Am not arguing with anybody, but serious question ... what if there was a big fast explosive athlete of a high school kid, who was no way close to being able to handle the academics of college ... might he go play in Canada? I was gonna say or Europe, but the cultural gap might be too much if he couldn't do college.
 
#108
#108
sjt18 said:
It is a FACT... defense or not. Want to pay them? Fine. Pay them $25k per year and let them pay for their own college. The $100K plus perks is low end. Lots of colleges and particularly the private ones are much more. Plus MANY kids who would otherwise have NO SHOT at a big name university get a degree worth more than they otherwise would.

And the thing you keep avoiding is that NO ONE forces any of these kids to sign their LOI. It is COMPLETELY up to them. It is a FREELY MADE AGREEMENT. IIRC, less than 1% will ever play in the NFL so if that's really their motivation.... then that's on them.

And if Mookie Betts were a football player ready to enter the NFL right out of HS... no one could stop him. If Mookie Betts blows out a knee then he's on his own. Even if he has money for education, he won't get into a school above his actual qualifying scores. He won't have an army of tutors to ensure he gets his degree.

The NFL does no such thing.... any more than the Air National Guard made my kids sign up to pay for college.

So if there was a developmental league... no one would get injured playing in it?

And... as I've pointed out several times... the kids can right up to the point where they VOLUNTARILY sign a LOI.


LOL... try everywhere. Do you really think every person capable and available to fill upper management roles makes it? Do you really believe that some of them don't have their careers de-railed by illness or problems?

When I graduated college and ROTC, I requested Army active duty. The army was in a draw down at that time so slots were tight. I knew what the scores of my peers were. I know for a fact that several "preferred" demographic cadets were selected over me though my scores were significantly better. One white guy who looked Hispanic with significantly lower scores was chosen.

Life's not fair. You should NEVER expect it to be fair. You can't make it be fair.

The NFL has made a choice that they are COMPLETELY ENTITLED TO MAKE... and I happen to believe it is a good one. The players are not slaves. They ARE compensated for playing and getting an education with high residual value. Some are even able to get a Masters while under scholarship.

Sorry but you are WAY off on this one... I notice you didn't try to play the capitalism thing again. Capitalism is about the freedom to make economic choices. YOU are the one trying to take that away from the NFL. Don't like the way they do it? Start your own league. The USFL didn't make it... but they're the reason there is any allowance to leave early.
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I think the rule is 21 or 3 years out of HS to go PRO.
 
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#113
#113
sjt18 said:
It is a FACT... defense or not. Want to pay them? Fine. Pay them $25k per year and let them pay for their own college. The $100K plus perks is low end. Lots of colleges and particularly the private ones are much more. Plus MANY kids who would otherwise have NO SHOT at a big name university get a degree worth more than they otherwise would.

And the thing you keep avoiding is that NO ONE forces any of these kids to sign their LOI. It is COMPLETELY up to them. It is a FREELY MADE AGREEMENT. IIRC, less than 1% will ever play in the NFL so if that's really their motivation.... then that's on them.

And if Mookie Betts were a football player ready to enter the NFL right out of HS... no one could stop him. If Mookie Betts blows out a knee then he's on his own. Even if he has money for education, he won't get into a school above his actual qualifying scores. He won't have an army of tutors to ensure he gets his degree.

The NFL does no such thing.... any more than the Air National Guard made my kids sign up to pay for college.

So if there was a developmental league... no one would get injured playing in it?

And... as I've pointed out several times... the kids can right up to the point where they VOLUNTARILY sign a LOI.


LOL... try everywhere. Do you really think every person capable and available to fill upper management roles makes it? Do you really believe that some of them don't have their careers de-railed by illness or problems?

When I graduated college and ROTC, I requested Army active duty. The army was in a draw down at that time so slots were tight. I knew what the scores of my peers were. I know for a fact that several "preferred" demographic cadets were selected over me though my scores were significantly better. One white guy who looked Hispanic with significantly lower scores was chosen.

Life's not fair. You should NEVER expect it to be fair. You can't make it be fair.

The NFL has made a choice that they are COMPLETELY ENTITLED TO MAKE... and I happen to believe it is a good one. The players are not slaves. They ARE compensated for playing and getting an education with high residual value. Some are even able to get a Masters while under scholarship.

Sorry but you are WAY off on this one... I notice you didn't try to play the capitalism thing again. Capitalism is about the freedom to make economic choices. YOU are the one trying to take that away from the NFL. Don't like the way they do it? Start your own league. The USFL didn't make it... but they're the reason there is any allowance to leave early.
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The fact is that tua this year would’ve been on an nfl team and guaranteed $24 million whether he gets hurt or not. Now his whole career is in jeopardy because the nfl has a rule that holds kids out of hs for 3 years simply to keep college football making money. This rule doesn’t have anything to do with the development of the players. The nba made the same rule except they only have to be removed from hs for 1 year. The only reason these rules are in place is to keep college football and basketball making money. And 25k a year is a joke compared to how valuable a player like tua is to a team. I’m sorry but your experience with the army doesn’t have a thing to do with our conversation here.
 
#117
#117
LittleVol said:
Pound for pound he was the best imo...
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I would agree if he would have fought his best competition in their prime.
Manny fight would have possibility been the best ever had that taken place 5 plus years earlier but that's the brilliance of Pretty Boy
 
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#118
#118
vols40 said:
I would agree if he would have fought his best competition in their prime.
Manny fight would have possibility been the best ever had that taken place 5 plus years earlier but that's the brilliance of Pretty Boy
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He was Money Mayweather by then. Pretty Boy took on all comers whenever.

Manny was actually a smarter more tactful all around fighter by the time he fought Floyd. It didn't matter.
 
#119
#119
LittleVol said:
He was Money Mayweather by then. Pretty Boy took on all comers whenever.

Manny was actually a smarter more tactful all around fighter by the time he fought Floyd. It didn't matter.
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It's because Floyd ducked him until then. Not saying Manny would have won but when they fought Manny was a shell of what he was 5 years before
 
#120
#120
vols40 said:
It's because Floyd ducked him until then. Not saying Manny would have won but when they fought Manny was a shell of what he was 5 years before
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I disagree. Manny was an even better fighter.
Boxing is similar to football in the way the the competition is about matchups.

Floyd was/is a terrible matchup for Manny.
Manny may be the greatest warrior in boxing history. But Floyd was the greatest boxer.
Winning rounds and not getting hit. Counter punching. Manny 5 years before that fight had no real defense. He was just so devastating offensively. But...had he fought Floyd then, he might have gotten knocked out. Even though Floyd lost much of that ability due to his hands. Many's relentlessness attacking nature would have gotten him in trouble, because Floyd feasts off counter punching.
 
#121
#121
LittleVol said:
I disagree. Manny was an even better fighter.
Boxing is similar to football in the way the the competition is about matchups.

Floyd was/is a terrible matchup for Manny.
Manny may be the greatest warrior in boxing history. But Floyd was the greatest boxer.
Winning rounds and not getting hit. Counter punching. Manny 5 years before that fight had no real defense. He was just so devastating offensively. But...had he fought Floyd then, he might have gotten knocked out. Even though Floyd lost much of that ability due to his hands. Many's relentlessness attacking nature would have gotten him in trouble, because Floyd feasts off counter punching.
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Nice take said don't completely disagree with your premise but it's not debatable Floyd fought alot of scrubs to pad that record and he fought them when he was ready. If he had fought Manny 5 years earlier I think it's very possible Manny ko's him.
 
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#123
#123
volunteerfan said:
The fact is that tua this year would’ve been on an nfl team and guaranteed $24 million whether he gets hurt or not.
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The fact is you have no idea how anything might have gone in an alternate universe. He likely would have been required to play in that developmental league you want. If so, he could have just as easily been injured. Only in that case... he wouldn't have been guaranteed a dime or an education. Unless you are claiming WHOLLY apart from reality that he would have signed a $24 million contract straight out of HS. If so... that's even more ridiculous. The NFL would have NO stake in overpaying unproven players any more than they do now.

Again, if an NFL team had believed that Tua was a sure fire future great then they could have drafted him out of HS and developed him within their own system as a scout team player. Nothing. NOTHING prevents that.

Now his whole career is in jeopardy because the nfl has a rule that holds kids out of hs for 3 years simply to keep college football making money.
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You keep acting like life has to be fair. Get over it. Lots of people every day suffer set backs in life and many for reasons much less than this rule. The rule assures that A LOT of kids who dream of playing in the NFL but never become good enough get a great education and a MUCH better chance in life than they otherwise would have. For every Tua out there who may have been harmed by this rule.... there are literally hundreds who benefit from it.

Tua made choices. The NFL had a RIGHT to have that rule. That's "capitalism". That's freedom. Others don't have to lose their freedom because you think it is unfair. Stop whining about how others exercise their freedom and what they do with their businesses.

Maybe if Tua had chosen a different school... he wouldn't have gotten injured. Maybe if he had demanded a RS he wouldn't have gotten injured. Maybe if he had worked a little harder in the weight room he wouldn't have gotten injured.

This rule doesn’t have anything to do with the development of the players.
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I think you've demonstrated to a very significant degree that you have no understanding of what the rule is for or capitalism or freedom or personal responsibility for choices or that life is full of risks and is often "unfair". It really doesn't matter why they have the rule though by and large it has to do with supporting college football and developing/evaluating future players.

The nba made the same rule except they only have to be removed from hs for 1 year.
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So? The NBA has a RIGHT to make its own rules. So does the NFL.

The only reason these rules are in place is to keep college football and basketball making money.
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And what exactly is wrong with that? Your screen name is "volunteerfan" and you have a problem with the NFL supporting college football?

And 25k a year is a joke compared to how valuable a player like tua is to a team.
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Again you seem to have no real concept of how capitalism or even basic personal responsibility in financial things works. MOST people take a job understanding the current requirements but also the future prospects. Tua signed with Bama knowing that he would get a free education and likely his best shot at playing in the NFL. That was the offer and he jumped all over it.

The financial benefits they get are worth more than $25K per year. But even if it were $5K per year... it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what two other parties agree to. It isn't up to you to decide if the value of that degree and chance to play professionally is enough. It is up to the kid signing the LOI. Why do you feel compelled to butt into other people's business?

Worst case, he has a degree that will open doors for the rest of his life.

I’m sorry but your experience with the army doesn’t have a thing to do with our conversation here.
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Sure it does. Life's not fair. You seem to have a real problem with that concept. Things frequently don't turn out how you plan or want them to. Sometimes that other course is the right one for you even though it may mean less money or missing out on things you thought you'd love. For all I know, I could be dead now if I had gotten that assignment. For all you know, Tua could have a car accident on his way to sign his contract and never receive a dime.

Bottom line. The Army didn't have to be "fair" with me. It had other mandates and priorities that it deemed more important. The NFL is under no obligation to be "fair" by YOUR terms. They have a RIGHT to support college football if they choose to do so.
 
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#124
#124
82_VOL_83 said:
I think the rule is 21 or 3 years out of HS to go PRO.
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That's not unreasonable IMO... and it would STILL be the NFL's right to have that rule regardless of who agreed or disagreed. I'm not sure what this other guy's issue is.... but his comparison to slavery is pretty untethered.
 
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#125
#125
sjt18 said:
That's not unreasonable IMO... and it would STILL be the NFL's right to have that rule regardless of who agreed or disagreed. I'm not sure what this other guy's issue is.... but his comparison to slavery is pretty untethered.
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There is no issue here, not with you or anybody. I just don’t agree with your take on this matter. It doesn’t matter how many words you use in your post or how many lines you quote. The bottom line is this, if the ncaa didn’t stand to lose billions then they wouldn’t give a f***. None of the other sports bring in the revenue that football and basketball do so they let the them go straight to the league IF they are good enough. It’s weird that you’re ok with the exploitation of these young men. Did you volunteer for the army knowing you weren’t gonna get paid? Would you have if it was for free? I seriously doubt you would have. I don’t care about fair either. College football is really the only avenue that these kids have as a minor league farm system to show their talents. Please don’t say they can go play arena ball or in the cfl because not many players take that route
 
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