Let's Talk About Sin

#501
#501
loggervol said:
you are right.

we have been given free choice.
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Have you ever thought that instead of suppressing the truth so they can live how they chose, that maybe the government made this up so you would live how they want?
 
#502
#502
Miracles seemed to disappear with the advent of cameras, then re-emerge with the release of photoshop.
 
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#503
#503
Brave Volunteer said:
See, this is the wall that I always seem to hit when debating these topics. When I pose these questions, often times a Christian will say "our finite minds simply cannot comprehend who God truly is and the mysteries of his nature or his plan." So basically what I'm hearing is "I can't answer your question."
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Granted, I can't answer every question. I said we CAN apprehend. Yes, there are things we cannot comprehend. There are mathmatic and scientific issues that humans cannot yet comprehend. That doesn't mean we cannot apprehend them. And, our inability to grasp something doesn't make it not exist or have purpose. That may frustrate you, but it's the truth and not just in theology.

Also I don't quite understand when you make the distinction between "what WOULD happen and what DOES happen." Are you implying that God truly doesn't know the outcome of everything before it happens or are you saying something else? Sorry, that went a bit over my head, LOL!
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No, I'm not implying that at all. Most have never studied Aquinas' five ways, and I'm not saying it's easy material. But his natural theology does address this, and it has yet to be refuted even by the brightest philospohical minds. Edward Feser is a great resource for getting a grip on the subject. What I'm saying is that knowing the outcome is different than the outcome being actualized.



OK I'll grant you that. You're right in that the Bible says nothing about God desiring or needing fellowship with us as the basis for our creation. However would you agree that according to the scriptures God DID create man to fulfill His eternal plan? If so, then that's great for the ones who subscribe to the Christian faith and believe in Jesus. The end result for them is wonderful! However for the billions who don't, for the ones who follow a different path whether it be through a different faith, science, atheism, etc, they are doomed (according to the scriptures)to be cast into the lake of fire to burn forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. I just can't see how His "plan" was ever worth carrying out when you weigh the consequences that so many will suffer. We're talking BILLIONS of souls here Roustabout! I'm sorry but I just don't see how the sins of one lifetime should = an eternal punishment of that severity. In this instance the punishment doesn't fit the crime (so far as my own finite mind can comprehend).
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I'm not saying this is an easy reality. Still, whether it's one soul or a billion, that doesn't change anything. I used the analogy earlier. I'm standing on a boat in the ocean and around me are 1,000 people treading water, about to die. I throw you a life preserver. But instead of being pulled to safety, you scream, 'what about these other people?' And you refuse to receive rescue. You'd be a stubborn fool for doing such. Grab the damn life line and come help me fish for some more.


So I guess I interpreted it wrong when God said "Let us make man in our own image."
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I don't know. How did you interpret it?


I don't think it's absurd at all. Not when you consider how awful the world is and the impending consequences for those who aren't believers. I absolutely believe that it would have been better if we were never created in the first place!
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Sure, you can say that, but it makes no sense. What would be better off? Nothing?

In fact, didn't God say in Genesis 6:6 That "He was sorry for ever creating man and that He was grieved in his heart?" If someone were presented the options of either A.) Never existing in the first place or B.) Spending eternity burning in a lake of fire I think we both know what most would choose. It's VERY logical the way I see it.
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Again, that is an absurd option. How can an existing person chose to have never existed to make the choice to not exist in the first place.

The context says, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
This tells me that we have a God who is actually concerned with our choices and behaviors. And it tells me how wicked we really are.

Have you SEEN Kate Upton? :p J/K.
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Meow!

I understand that he desired to be God. I don't understand where that kind of desire would come from.
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Where do your sinful desires come from? You!! Self.

The angels were celestial beings, closer to God than almost anyone (other than His Son and The Holy Spirit of course). They stood in His presence, experienced his awesomeness, saw first hand his magnificence. Yet despite all that some still chose to rebel. Now if those beings were able to rebel against God, in spite of having first hand knowledge and understanding of who he is, how on Earth can God not expect the same from humans on Earth who haven't been granted such exposure to who He is?
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What does God expect of us? Let's just say for a moment that there is no god and this is all just a happy accident. Is there a way you should behave? And, should there be and are there consequences for not behaving in such a way?

That's why I said I don't see how Lucifer could possibly have those desires without God creating him to have those tendencies in the first place.
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You are actually phrasing the question differently now. You earlier used the word chose. That means a person or being must have the actual ability to affect an outcome. We are talking about relationship here. Loving my wife is not an emotion, but a choice. There are times that I don't FEEL loving, but I can still CHOOSE to act in a loving way. In failing to do so, I have deprived my wife of what is good and just. I have acted selfishly. Have you ever done anything like this with a parent or spouse? Then why is it so hard to understand why a free being could do the same?

I understand the idea that God did not create angels and humans to be automatons. What I don't understand is why some should be doomed to eternal damnation for simply exercising their free will and choosing a path not related to God's plan, despite the fact they were created to have those tendencies in the first place. If God has a "plan" and part of that plan includes the eternal damnation of billions of souls, it doesn't seem like a very sound plan IMO.
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Again, you are assuming in your question that God created angels and humans with evil tendencies. As if we really aren't responsible for doing wrong even when we KNOW we are doing wrong. Really? Do you have children. When they do something wrong, do you just say, "Oh well, they are acting according to their own tendencies." Or, do you attempt to discipline and correct such behavior?
 
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#504
#504
Vol8188 said:
You saw that happen?
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Never claimed to. Just showing an example that would be pretty good proof that a miracle occurred. You were asking for an instance. I gave you a "for instance."

But for the record... It was claimed to have happened in front of hundreds of witnesses and left as historical documents, the earliest within 30ish years of the supposed events, and passed on to us in over 5500 manuscripts that don't deviate from one another more than 0.01%. It is the most historically documented event in history, and one would have to deny the writing of Plato, Pliny, and every other ancient historical event to deny the historicity of this event. (Unless one is operating on an a prior disbelief of miracles.)
 
#505
#505
Orange_Crush said:
Never claimed to. Just showing an example that would be pretty good proof that a miracle occurred. You were asking for an instance. I gave you a "for instance."

But for the record... It was claimed to have happened in front of hundreds of witnesses and left as historical documents, the earliest within 30ish years of the supposed events, and passed on to us in over 5500 manuscripts that don't deviate from one another more than 0.01%. It is the most historically documented event in history, and one would have to deny the writing of Plato, Pliny, and every other ancient historical event to deny the historicity of this event. (Unless one is operating on an a prior disbelief of miracles.)
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Your right, because the Romans and Catholic Church were all extremely trustworthy. And had absolutely nothing to gain here.
 
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#506
#506
Orange_Crush said:
Never claimed to. Just showing an example that would be pretty good proof that a miracle occurred. You were asking for an instance. I gave you a "for instance."

But for the record... It was claimed to have happened in front of hundreds of witnesses and left as historical documents, the earliest within 30ish years of the supposed events, and passed on to us in over 5500 manuscripts that don't deviate from one another more than 0.01%. It is the most historically documented event in history, and one would have to deny the writing of Plato, Pliny, and every other ancient historical event to deny the historicity of this event. (Unless one is operating on an a prior disbelief of miracles.)
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That's "pretty good proof" to you?
 
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#507
#507
Vol8188 said:
Your right, because the Romans and Catholic Church were all extremely trustworthy. And had absolutely nothing to gain here.
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What is that even supposed to mean? The manuscripts have been found, dated and compared for agreement-- and more are being found in recent times. That's the beauty of the way the NT documents have come to us through history. If there was one, or two, or three, all locked behind closed doors of one institution, then one could wonder if that institution altered them with prejudice. When you have over 5,000, with 99.9% agreement between them, a conspiracy is ludicrous.

And for the record, they haven't all been in the Roman Catholic archives all this time-- or now. Some came through RC lines. Some from Egypt. Most others through archaeological finds. Again, the "conspiracy" argument is ludicrous.
 
#508
#508
Orange_Crush said:
Never claimed to. Just showing an example that would be pretty good proof that a miracle occurred. You were asking for an instance. I gave you a "for instance."

But for the record... It was claimed to have happened in front of hundreds of witnesses and left as historical documents, the earliest within 30ish years of the supposed events, and passed on to us in over 5500 manuscripts that don't deviate from one another more than 0.01%. It is the most historically documented event in history, and one would have to deny the writing of Plato, Pliny, and every other ancient historical event to deny the historicity of this event. (Unless one is operating on an a prior disbelief of miracles.)
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And just so we are clear, the real miracle here was the resurrection, correct?

How many people saw Jesus after he died?
 
#509
#509
Brave Volunteer said:
However for the billions who don't, for the ones who follow a different path whether it be through a different faith, science, atheism, etc, they are doomed (according to the scriptures)to be cast into the lake of fire to burn forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. I just can't see how His "plan" was ever worth carrying out when you weigh the consequences that so many will suffer. We're talking BILLIONS of souls here Roustabout! I'm sorry but I just don't see how the sins of one lifetime should = an eternal punishment of that severity. In this instance the punishment doesn't fit the crime (so far as my own finite mind can comprehend).
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I'm with you on this point. If the Christian God is real and there is a paradise awaiting those who are faithful, I do not believe that a God of perfect love would allow eternal torment for those falling short of paradise. I believe hell in that scenario would be eternal separation from God, meaning eternal death. Nothingness.
 
#510
#510
gcbvol said:
I'm with you on this point. If the Christian God is real and there is a paradise awaiting those who are faithful, I do not believe that a God of perfect love would allow eternal torment for those falling short of paradise. I believe hell in that scenario would be eternal separation from God, meaning eternal death. Nothingness.
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That's not scary enough for those who aren't afraid of the dark. There's gotta be pain to motivate folks.
 
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#515
#515
gcbvol said:
I'm with you on this point. If the Christian God is real and there is a paradise awaiting those who are faithful, I do not believe that a God of perfect love would allow eternal torment for those falling short of paradise. I believe hell in that scenario would be eternal separation from God, meaning eternal death. Nothingness.
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That is a position that is advocated by some.
 
#517
#517
Vol8188 said:
Sensitive? That's cute, I like that in my women.

Anyway how many people saw your resurrected savior?
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Not at all. I enjoy genuine dialog, but don't find it beneficial to anyone to continue for the sake of such as that. As I said. Good day to you.

:hi:
 
#518
#518
Vol8188 said:
How many people saw your Zombie Jesus?
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Did somebody take your Ken and Barbie dolls away from you as a kid? You have some major issues relative to respect, common courtesy, and general communication skills. I'm guessing "has a hard time playing with others" showed up frequently on your report cards.
 
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#519
#519
gcbvol said:
I'm with you on this point. If the Christian God is real and there is a paradise awaiting those who are faithful, I do not believe that a God of perfect love would allow eternal torment for those falling short of paradise. I believe hell in that scenario would be eternal separation from God, meaning eternal death. Nothingness.
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eternal separation from god would be hell. absence from God's love and glory.

GOD has given us all free choice to be with him or not.
 
#521
#521
IBlvNTmWrk said:
Did somebody take your Ken and Barbie dolls away from you as a kid? You have some major issues relative to respect, common courtesy, and general communication skills. I'm guessing "has a hard time playing with others" showed up frequently on your report cards.
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You don't think you're being a little soft skinned over the phrase "Zombie Jesus" do you?
 
#523
#523
Vol8188 said:
You don't think you're being a little soft skinned over the phrase "Zombie Jesus" do you?
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It's not necessarily about that. It's about mutual respect in dialog. If I walked up and called your wife "Carrot-nose", you may know that your wife is beautiful enough that the name doesn't fit, but you'd also know that I have no respect for you and did not start off with genuine dialog in mind.
 
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#524
#524
Vol8188 said:
You don't think you're being a little soft skinned over the phrase "Zombie Jesus" do you?
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Has little to nothing to do with the name you chose, but everything to do with the fact that you think name calling would be appropriate given the general conversation you were having with Crush.
 
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#525
#525
Vol8188 said:
You don't think you're being a little soft skinned over the phrase "Zombie Jesus" do you?
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Zombie Jesus is the correct nomenclature.

Zombie, coming from creole as Zombi and traced to its latin roots as mortuus vivens translates to undead, aka not being dead anymore, aka resurrected. Jesus is an anglican version of Yeshua, the Jew name for Jesus.

So Mortuus Vivens Yeshua could be used to describe the resurrected Jesus just as well as using modern terminology, like Zombie Christ.
 
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