Lebron/Jordan

[GAVol]

Yeah, and Jordan's status eventually usurped all of them. Was MJ compared to any of those guys as a junior in high school like LeBron was compared to Jordan?

It was the early 80s. Scout and Rivals didn't exist and ESPN was barely off the ground. Nobody even knew who high school kids even were, and nobody could even declare for the draft until their Junior year. Just a totally different world as far as hype goes.

Jordan was seen as a great player, but that was a 7 footer's era. It's why Hakeem and Sam Bowie got picked ahead of Jordan despite Bobby Knight and Dean Smith telling everybody he was the best player they'd ever seen.

 

[05_never_again]

It was the early 80s. Scout and Rivals didn't exist and ESPN was barely off the ground. Nobody even knew who high school kids even were, and nobody could even declare for the draft until their Junior year. Just a totally different world as far as hype goes. Not sure how that's supposed to work against Lebron.

Exactly, that's my point. LeBron, IMO, would be viewed differently (i.e., more positively) by a lot of people if he came before Jordan or if Jordan had never existed. He's been in Jordan's shadow (even though MJ and LBJ are totally different types of players) since he was about 15 years old, 2-3 years before he even became a professional basketball player. Jordan, even though he was hyped and followed in the footsteps of great players himself, dealt with it nowhere to the same extent. I think the size and volume of LeBron's group of haters is largely caused by a group of people that doesn't want him to be better than Jordan, or doesn't want him to become as big of an icon as Jordan was. LeBron brings some of it on himself (he's sensitive and passive-aggressive like most NBA players) in a way that Jordan didn't.

...and I say this as a guy who doesn't really care for LeBron and doesn't think he's as good as Jordan was.

 

[n_huffhines]

It was partially before my time, but there's no way Jordan had a legion of haters, especially before winning titles, as big and loud as LeBron has. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, LeBron could do to silence that crowd.

In that regard, the biggest thing LeBron has working against him is that he came after Jordan. Jordan had no other Jordan to be compared to. Sure, there were legendary players that came before MJ, but no figures as iconic as him. Meanwhile LBJ has been compared to Jordan since high school.

I wouldn't call them haters, just doubters.

 

[05_never_again]

I wouldn't call them haters, just doubters.

Ok fair, but at this point, what are they doubting?

 

[n_huffhines]

Yeah, and Jordan's status eventually usurped all of them. Was MJ compared to any of those guys as a junior in high school like LeBron was compared to Jordan?

Nobody in sports has ever had anything remotely close to the lifelong pressure and attention Lebron has had.

As a person, Lebron is so much more impressive than MJ. He doesn't even know who his Dad is and his Mom is a total mess and the worst thing you can say about Lebron is that you didn't like the way he left Cleveland (and he raised big time $ for the Boys Club doing it). MJ had everything you'd want growing up and he's a sociopath.

 

[n_huffhines]

Ok fair, but at this point, what are they doubting?

That he could be in the convo with Magic and Bird.

 

[05_never_again]

That he could be in the convo with Magic and Bird.

Well, he no doubt is in the convo with them, no? At this point the only thing he's trying to prove is whether he should be in the convo with Jordan, who (rightly or wrongly) is kind of in a class by himself.

To most people, LBJ will never be in the convo with MJ because of his 3-6 Finals record versus MJ's 6-0. As you said earlier in this thread that's a flawed metric, but it's what people do.

 

[n_huffhines]

Well, he no doubt is in the convo with them, no? At this point the only thing he's trying to prove is whether he should be in the convo with Jordan, who (rightly or wrongly) is kind of in a class by himself.

To most people, LBJ will never be in the convo with MJ because of his 3-6 Finals record versus MJ's 6-0. As you said earlier in this thread that's a flawed metric, but it's what people do.

I was talking about MJ before all the rings.

Personally, I think Lebron is in the convo with MJ. Sticking with the modern era, if you're just counting rings or saying the GOAT is the guy who was the best at his peak or dominated the league the most, it's MJ. If the GOAT is the guy who was at the top of the league the longest, it's Kareem, but soon to be surpassed by Lebron. If GOAT is the guy you would want to duplicate 5x and play against any other 5 clones, it's Lebron. If the GOAT is the guy who played the best in the biggest moments, it's Magic (his finals performances are on another level).

 

[05_never_again]

I was talking about MJ before all the rings.

Personally, I think Lebron is in the convo with MJ. Sticking with the modern era, if you're just counting rings or saying the GOAT is the guy who was the best at his peak or dominated the league the most, it's MJ. If the GOAT is the guy who was at the top of the league the longest, it's Kareem, but soon to be surpassed by Lebron. If GOAT is the guy you would want to duplicate 5x and play against any other 5 clones, it's Lebron. If the GOAT is the guy who played the best in the biggest moments, it's Magic (his finals performances are on another level).

I think ultimately you have to measure it by whose peak was the highest and did it last for a period of several years (peak + longevity). You have to have a big peak combined with some staying power - having one or the other makes you a great player, but not the GOAT.

IMO Jordan's peak was the highest, and despite the retirements he did it for a long enough period of time to make him the GOAT. #2 is probably Kareem, although you could definitely argue that it's LeBron.

 

[n_huffhines]

I think ultimately you have to measure it by whose peak was the highest and did it last for a period of several years (peak + longevity). You have to have a big peak combined with some staying power - having one or the other makes you a great player, but not the GOAT.

IMO Jordan's peak was the highest, and despite the retirements he did it for a long enough period of time to make him the GOAT. #2 is probably Kareem, although you could definitely argue that it's LeBron.

If you're arriving on MJ by that definition, I'd say it's probably Magic. His peak was 2-3 years longer than MJ's and he went to more finals and played better (on average) in those finals against better opponents.

MJ's easily got the best 5-7 year run, though.

 

[05_never_again]

If you're arriving on MJ by that definition, I'd say it's probably Magic. His peak was 2-3 years longer than MJ's and he went to more finals and played better (on average) in those finals against better opponents.

MJ's easily got the best 5-7 year run, though.

Going to more Finals is a team thing though.

Would you agree or disagree that of the two players, MJ was more well-rounded despite the fact that Magic could play 4 positions? Jordan was of course better at some things than others but I don't think he had any holes in his game. There really wasn't any basketball skill that he was less than good at. Magic was never a good shooter/scorer and wasn't the defender Jordan was. I think that for those reasons Jordan's peak was probably ever so slightly higher. Magic also had period of time where he stepped away from the game, cutting his longevity as well.

 

[n_huffhines]

Going to more Finals is a team thing though.

Would you agree or disagree that of the two players, MJ was more well-rounded despite the fact that Magic could play 4 positions? Jordan was of course better at some things than others but I don't think he had any holes in his game. There really wasn't any basketball skill that he was less than good at. Magic was never a good shooter/scorer and wasn't the defender Jordan was. I think that for those reasons Jordan's peak was probably ever so slightly higher. Magic also had period of time where he stepped away from the game, cutting his longevity as well.

MJ was an elite defender and shooter so yeah, he was more well rounded but I totally disagree that Magic wasn't a good scorer. He wasn't a good shooter but he was one of the best scorers in the league. You didn't have to be a good shooter or defender back then. You could hide bad defenders and shooting wasn't that valued. He wasn't scoring 25+ ppg because he was an even better passer. He could have easily done close to 30 ppg if he wasn't racking up 12+ assists. His career shooting efficiency was an unreal 61% TS% scoring 19.5 ppg. MJ's was 57%.