Lebron/Jordan

BadJerry20

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It's 9 and 26 total because it's every time you faced the individual. So Karl Malone and John Stockton = 4 of Jordan's 9.

Tim Duncan, Manu, and Tony Parker x 3 = 9.

Warriors 4 x 3 =12.

Dirk + Kidd (and Chandler is in my HOF, but won't be in the NBA's)

Durant, Westbrook, Harden = 3

I assume that is his 26. Maybe he's saying Iggy over Klay? Doubt that, tho, even though I think a fairly good case can be made for Iggy.
Ah, I wasn't thinking about doubling and tripling them up. Gotcha. I'd put Iggy in. Fwiw
 
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05_never_again

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How many times did Jordan face a better team?
This. Jordan was 6-for-6 in Finals appearances, but the Bulls were clearly the better squad in each of those series. Now, them having Jordan was a big reason why they were the better team, but having Jordan alone would not have automatically made them the favorite.

As easy as it is to rag on LeBron, in all of the Finals he has played in, how many times has he objectively (as much as can be determined) played on the better team?
 
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05_never_again

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If he had a consistent jump shot he'd be a multiple all nba guy. Very underrated player for a long time
True, and just evidence that these types of considerations (across all sports, not just the NBA) are biased towards offense.

If you have Hall of Fame offensive talent and either don't play or don't care to play a lick of defense, you get into the HoF, no questions asked.

If you have Hall of Fame defensive talent and make little, if any, offensive contributions, you only get the recognition you deserve if you complement a superstar who does score, like Rodman did with Jordan.
 

n_huffhines

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I think basketball is a game that favors offensive value, though (strictly speaking in terms of an individual's impact on a game). Big men can probably have equal value on both ends of the floor (if not more value on D), because of how important working the glass and defending the paint is....but for a perimeter defender, it's hard to equal the impact that a wing can have on offense. If you're good enough to shut down your man, the opponent just stops going at you, whereas they have to go in the paint and can't avoid the big.
 

knucklehead_vol

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Quote

On the cover of Sports Illustrated as a high school teenager, James has stayed largely scandal-free in a social media age where that's easier said than done. Jordan might have broken the internet with his gambling trip to Atlantic City before Game 2 of the 1993 Eastern Conference finals against the Knicks.

Jordan's legendary drive, competitiveness and assassin-like performances will stand the test of time forevermore. James' accomplishments will too.

Basketball fans should feel fortunate to sit back and watch another legendary No. 23 go to work.
 
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Johnnyreb#VFL

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This was the quote by Theodore Roosevelt the Lebron referenced last week. "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
This can be applied to Lebron, MJ, Kobe, or anyone really. Unless you played at a high level in the NBA which I'm pretty sure none of us on here ( except for fake Travis Stephens on the football forum lol) have, we are all just critics of something we could never do.
 

05_never_again

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Bumping this because of ESPN's awesome Jordan documentary. I do think Jordan is the best ever, but if his career happened today can y'all imagine how the hater narratives would write themselves?

- Jordan can't beat the Pistons
- Jordan is nothing without Pippen (headache game)
- Jordan beat the Pistons only after they got older/worn down (still beat him 2 out of 3 playoff series)
- Jordan's first title came against a Lakers squad past its peak and nowhere near as good as the 80s glory years
- The rest of Jordan's titles didn't come against particularly great/deep competition
 
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n_huffhines

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Bumping this because of ESPN's awesome Jordan documentary. I do think Jordan is the best ever, but if his career happened today can y'all imagine how the hater narratives would write themselves?

- Jordan can't beat the Pistons
- Jordan is nothing without Pippen (headache game)
- Jordan beat the Pistons only after they got older/worn down (still beat him 2 out of 3 playoff series)
- Jordan's first title came against a Lakers squad past its peak and nowhere near as good as the 80s glory years
- The rest of Jordan's titles didn't come against particularly great/deep competition
I mean, that was sort of the narrative at the time but there was no internet or 24 hr sports talk on TV.

The stupid thing is you are who you are regardless of how many titles you win. He wasn't as good in the second 3peat as he was in the late 80's when he wasn't winning rings. MJ probably has less than 3 titles without Scottie (or a comparable sidekick) but he's still the same player that he was, regardless. The perception of who he is is largely determined by the ring count. It's probably the dumbest thing about sports.
 

05_never_again

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I mean, that was sort of the narrative at the time but there was no internet or 24 hr sports talk on TV.

The stupid thing is you are who you are regardless of how many titles you win. He wasn't as good in the second 3peat as he was in the late 80's when he wasn't winning rings. MJ probably has less than 3 titles without Scottie (or a comparable sidekick) but he's still the same player that he was, regardless. The perception of who he is is largely determined by the ring count. It's probably the dumbest thing about sports.
It was partially before my time, but there's no way Jordan had a legion of haters, especially before winning titles, as big and loud as LeBron has. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, LeBron could do to silence that crowd.

In that regard, the biggest thing LeBron has working against him is that he came after Jordan. Jordan had no other Jordan to be compared to. Sure, there were legendary players that came before MJ, but no figures as iconic as him. Meanwhile LBJ has been compared to Jordan since high school.
 

GAVol

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In that regard, the biggest thing LeBron has working against him is that he came after Jordan. Jordan had no other Jordan to be compared to. Sure, there were legendary players that came before MJ, but no figures as iconic as him. Meanwhile LBJ has been compared to Jordan since high school.
Come on. MJ walked into a Lakers/Celtics world with Larry, Magic and the tail end of Kareem and Dr. J. Then he spent a few years hearing "all he does is score", he doesn't elevate his team", "he can't win in the playoffs".
 

GAVol

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I mean, that was sort of the narrative at the time but there was no internet or 24 hr sports talk on TV.

The stupid thing is you are who you are regardless of how many titles you win. He wasn't as good in the second 3peat as he was in the late 80's when he wasn't winning rings. MJ probably has less than 3 titles without Scottie (or a comparable sidekick) but he's still the same player that he was, regardless. The perception of who he is is largely determined by the ring count. It's probably the dumbest thing about sports.
Totally agree. So many things have to go right to win championships in a team sport. But . . . once a guy gets more than a couple, I think you have to give him some credit for an intangible.
 

05_never_again

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Come on. MJ walked into a Lakers/Celtics world with Larry, Magic and the tail end of Kareem and Dr. J. Then he spent a few years hearing "all he does is score", he doesn't elevate his team", "he can't win in the playoffs".
Yeah, and Jordan's status eventually usurped all of them. Was MJ compared to any of those guys as a junior in high school like LeBron was compared to Jordan?
 

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