Kiffin

#26

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#26
2009 was the last time we saw a coach on the sidelines for TN that understood X's and O's. I am not saying he is a great coach, he isnt. But he is a decent coach.
He won 7 games with a team that had a future HOF Safety, multiple NFL OL, a TE who is still in the NFL, Dan Williams was a 1st round draft pick, Hardesty, Rico McCoy. Come on. 7 games with that bunch. I think Dooley or Butch could have accomplished that.
 
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#27

crusse10

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#27
I'm pretty sure those rankings take into account the size of classes. If a school brought in 5 5-star recruits and that was it, they wouldn't have the #1 recruiting class by virtue of having the highest average star rating.
The size of the class does come into play, but it's not a huge role. The biggest factor is the ratings of the players. 2010 they had 2 3* players. Everyone else was either 4 or 5. 9 of their enrollees were Top 100 for 247composite. 7 players were top 2 at their position. The class was good for what it was.

Also, for the time, Rivals was the site to use. Their system only grades your best 20 players. So their 18-player class consisted of 4 5*s, 14 4*s, and 1 3*. It's pretty easy to figure out why it was ranked so high. Those empty spots, though, start to pile up.
 
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#30
He won 7 games with a team that had a future HOF Safety, multiple NFL OL, a TE who is still in the NFL, Dan Williams was a 1st round draft pick, Hardesty, Rico McCoy. Come on. 7 games with that bunch. I think Dooley or Butch could have accomplished that.
Kiffin went out there and competed with (and beat) some of our rivals. Fulmer was the whipping post for those rivals. Dooley didn't fare much better than Fulmer against those rivals.
 
#31

Vol8188

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#31
What's funny is that he produced his best years right when they were in the thick of those sanctions (2010 and 2011). Once they were in the clear of those, they actually got worse.

USC was preseason #1 and pulled a top 10 recruiting class in 2012, and had Matt Barkley (preseason Heisman favorite) returning along with 3 future NFL wide receivers (Robert Woods, Marquise Lee, Nelson Agholor). They went 7-6.
The scholarship reduction wasn’t immediate. It was a slow process that happened over a number of years.
 
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#32

Vol8188

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#32
That would be a valid argument if he recruited horribly in 2010 and 2011, but USC had the 3rd ranked recruiting classes in 2010 and 2011. In 2013 they were 8th and in 2014 they were 10th. His results on the field and on the recruiting trail got worse as the sanctions ended.

That 7-6 mark with the team he fielded in 2012 was a massive underachievement. At the end of the 2012 season and into 2013, he lost the team and they totally fell apart, just as the sanctions were over. IMO, Kiffin benefited from having the momentum Carroll created stay on for a couple years, and then once it was truly "his team" he struggled.

Kiffin is a good OC and can be a good HC at a po-dunk school. To allow him to be any more than that is suicide for a program.
His classes were highly ranked but extremely small is what you’re missing.
 
#33

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#33
His classes were highly ranked but extremely small is what you’re missing.
I’m exaggerating the numbers, but he had like 10 5* and 4* and wound up with a highly rated class but severely lacking depth. I think his dad was part of his Achilles heel as well.

All anyone needs to do is listen to Jonathan Cropmton’s account of Kiffin working with him. I think Kiffin is a sleazy guy, but deep down loves his players and really teaches them how to play the game.
 
#34

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I’m exaggerating the numbers, but he had like 10 5* and 4* and wound up with a highly rated class but severely lacking depth. I think his dad was part of his Achilles heel as well.

All anyone needs to do is listen to Jonathan Cropmton’s account of Kiffin working with him. I think Kiffin is a sleazy guy, but deep down loves his players and really teaches them how to play the game.
I wouldn’t want him dating my daughter, but I’d love to have him coach my team
 
#36

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#36
Sounds like a lot of excuse-making. The size of the classes is absolutely taken into consideration, and 247 (which is an average of all the big services) said he had top 10 classes each of those years, even with the scholarship reductions.

Again, the guy has only truly proven anything as an assistant, and all of Saban's OC's have been successful. He's had one good year as an HC at a school nobody cares about.

Having Kiffin be the HC or a major program is like giving a lead-footed, drunk 16-year-old the keys to a Ferrari.
 
#38

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Sounds like a lot of excuse-making. The size of the classes is absolutely taken into consideration, and 247 (which is an average of all the big services) said he had top 10 classes each of those years, even with the scholarship reductions.

Again, the guy has only truly proven anything as an assistant, and all of Saban's OC's have been successful. He's had one good year as an HC at a school nobody cares about.

Having Kiffin be the HC or a major program is like giving a lead-footed, drunk 16-year-old the keys to a Ferrari.
Those classes you’re talking about were all 20 players or less. It’s the most impressive recruiting I’ve ever seen.

They were extremely small classes. Which along with free agency created major depth issues

Despite all that, he was bringing in as many elite athletes as he possibly could.
 
#39

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#39
2010 85 Kiffin 8-5
2011 85 Kiffin 10-2
2012 75 Kiffin 7-6, roster losses were Freshmen
2013 75 Kiffin 3-2, ended 10-4, roster losses were Fresh and soph
2014 75 Sark 9-4, roster losses were fresh, soph and juniors
2015 75 Sark 8-5, roster were short every year
2016 82 Helton 10-3, roster were short of seniors, juniors, and sophmores. they were able to take a big class to get back up.

Limited by NCAA no more, sky is the limit for USC's recruiting class

both Sark and Helton did better with less. Kiffin was at the front end of the losses, only losing out fresh and sophs who probably wouldn't have helped as much, while the next coaches were missing juniors and seniors.
 
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#40

Vol8188

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#40
2010 85 Kiffin 8-5
2011 85 Kiffin 10-2
2012 75 Kiffin 7-6, roster losses were Freshmen
2013 75 Kiffin 3-2, ended 10-4, roster losses were Fresh and soph
2014 75 Sark 9-4, roster losses were fresh, soph and juniors
2015 75 Sark 8-5, roster were short every year
2016 82 Helton 10-3, roster were short of seniors, juniors, and sophmores. they were able to take a big class to get back up.

Limited by NCAA no more, sky is the limit for USC's recruiting class

both Sark and Helton did better with less. Kiffin was at the front end of the losses, only losing out fresh and sophs who probably wouldn't have helped as much, while the next coaches were missing juniors and seniors.
That’s not a fair acessment because you’re not counting the loss of players from every class due to free agency

And the article you posted even admits they had less than 60 players the year prior
 
#41
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#41
Kiffin went out there and competed with (and beat) some of our rivals. Fulmer was the whipping post for those rivals. Dooley didn't fare much better than Fulmer against those rivals.
Which rivals are those? Georgia and South Carolina? Fulmer was 11-6 vs Georgia and 14-2 vs South Carolina. Hardly what I would call a whipping post.
 
#42

05_never_again

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#42
Which rivals are those? Georgia and South Carolina? Fulmer was 11-6 vs Georgia and 14-2 vs South Carolina. Hardly what I would call a whipping post.
He might be taking an ultra-short term view of beating "some of our rivals." Fulmer lost to Georgia and South Carolina the season before.

Kiffin is a complete joke as the HC of a big program, but it is undeniable that he's a good offensive mind and actually did improve the offense, Crompdaddy in particular, when he was here.

I have no doubt though that if the USC job didn't come open, he would have been around for 3-4 years, probably gotten us to 8-9 wins, recruited highly ranked classes that ended up busting for various reasons, and then been fired for NCAA violations.
 
#43

volfanngatorland

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#43
He might be taking an ultra-short term view of beating "some of our rivals." Fulmer lost to Georgia and South Carolina the season before.

Kiffin is a complete joke as the HC of a big program but it is undeniable that he's a good offensive mind and actually did improve the offense, Crompdaddy in particular, when he was here.

I have no doubt though that if the USC job didn't come open, he would have been around for 3-4 years, probably gotten us to 8-9 wins, recruited highly ranked classes that ended up busting for various reasons, and then been fired for NCAA violations.
Doubt you’ll find anyone outside of scorned Tennessee fans who would agree with this
 
#44

crusse10

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#44
Which rivals are those? Georgia and South Carolina? Fulmer was 11-6 vs Georgia and 14-2 vs South Carolina. Hardly what I would call a whipping post.
From 05 to 08, we lost to Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina by a combined 406-292. We went 5-11 against them. 2 of those 4 seasons we were swept by them. But sure, hang onto his record against them in the 90s.

In 2008, we lost to them by a combined score of 112-35. If that's not a widespread whoopin' by our 4 best rivals, I don't know what else to call it.
 
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#45

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#45
From 05 to 08, we lost to Florida, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina by a combined 406-292. We went 5-11 against them. 2 of those 4 seasons we were swept by them. But sure, hang onto his record against them in the 90s.

In 2008, we lost to them by a combined score of 112-35. If that's not a widespread whoopin' by our 4 best rivals, I don't know what else to call it.
So basically you're impressed that Kiffin was able to lose by less to 2 of the rivals in his one year and was able to beat 2 rivals that Fulmer went 2-2 against in the time frame you referenced?
 
#46

crusse10

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#46
So basically you're impressed that Kiffin was able to lose by less to 2 of the rivals in his one year and was able to beat 2 rivals that Fulmer went 2-2 against in the time frame you referenced?
Tennessee's trajectory was going toward mediocrity. Kiffin altered that course the moment he got here regarding what he was going to do. He took a QB whose confidence had been destroyed and made him worthy of a draft pick. He brought in top-level talent in his first class and had us set up for another great class.

Had he not left, it's possible that we'd have been hit with sanctions. I'm not disagreeing. But Tennessee football, in the college football landscape, mattered. Before he was hired, we didn't matter.
 
#49

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#49
That’s not a fair acessment because you’re not counting the loss of players from every class due to free agency

And the article you posted even admits they had less than 60 players the year prior
that 60 would have been under Sark who faced a worse situation than Kiffin and had a better average.

those free agency losses would still have gotten worse the same with the scholarships as they couldn't replace them. so it still does the point that Kiffin wasn't facing as bad as the next guys.
 
#50

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Tennessee's trajectory was going toward mediocrity. Kiffin altered that course the moment he got here regarding what he was going to do. He took a QB whose confidence had been destroyed and made him worthy of a draft pick. He brought in top-level talent in his first class and had us set up for another great class.

Had he not left, it's possible that we'd have been hit with sanctions. I'm not disagreeing. But Tennessee football, in the college football landscape, mattered. Before he was hired, we didn't matter.
most of his first class didn't even play a game did they? as much as Butchs top 4 class was hollow kiffins class was worse.
 

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