Is this one of the other reasons the Lady Vols are struggling in HS recruiting?

#1
G

GLRedux

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#1
The following is the Lady Vols' record under Kellie on national tv:

2019-2020: 2 wins 5 losses (2 of the losses by double digit points)
'20 - '21: 3 - 4 ( 3 )
'21 - '22: 4 - 6 ( 5 )
'22 - '23: 4 - 9 ( 5 )
'23 - '24: 0 - 5 ( 3 )

13 wins 29 losses - 18 of the losses by double digits. Yikes!
I wonder if many of the top HS recruits and their advisors watched these games and deemed the LVs not competitive enough against teams they want to play. So, they chose other schools.

If you're asking why are they so successful in portal recruiting, perhaps the older players' priorities are different - want more national exposure regardless of the record, simply want to play against better competition, etc.
 
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#3
#3
GLRedux said:
The following is the Lady Vols' record under Kellie on national tv:

2019-2020: 2 wins 5 losses (2 of the losses by double digit points)
'20 - '21: 3 - 4 ( 3 )
'21 - '22: 4 - 6 ( 5 )
'22 - '23: 4 - 9 ( 5 )
'23 - '24: 0 - 5 ( 3 )

13 wins 29 losses - 18 of the losses by double digits. Yikes!
I wonder if many of the top HS recruits and their advisors watched these games and deemed the LVs not competitive enough against teams they want to play. So, they chose other schools.

If you're asking why are they so successful in portal recruiting, perhaps the older players' priorities are different - want more national exposure regardless of the record, simply want to play against better competition, etc.
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Exactly. I don't doubt that lack of signing bonus $ is a problem but our national tv exposure is horrid. Seals every perception of "consistently underwhelming". Part of KJH epic bad luck that TAM was the first SEC game on national TV. Couldn't have been one of the comeback games w RJ balling out.

Of course the answer is be better all the time including on nat TV, but to do that you need to recruit real players. This is definitely part of the vicious cycle.

Also spot on about the diff in hs and portal recruiting. RJ was asked about that difference in a presser last year. She said as an 18 yr old hs player its all about nattys and coaches who can do that. She said the second time it's much more about where you fit in and where you feel at home. And who can get a player like her to the next level. All of that plays exactly to KJH strengths and weaknesses.
 
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#5
#5
Big Orange Rob said:
The juggernaut Lady Vol program is gone. Hopefully a dynamic new coach can resuscitate it.
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IMO one of our big problems has been trying to "resuscitate" something that's been dead for almost two decades. Of course that's a normal tendency with something and someone so iconic as Pat and the Glory Days. But that's a lost cause. Clinging to that instead of moving on has really hurt us

We need a dynamic coach who can create a new tradition, while always honoring the past but keeping it in the background. Let the old days finally rest in peace.
 
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#6
#6
glv98 said:
Exactly. I don't doubt that lack of signing bonus $ is a problem but our national tv exposure is horrid. Seals every perception of "consistently underwhelming". Part of KJH epic bad luck that TAM was the first SEC game on national TV. Couldn't have been one of the comeback games w RJ balling out.

Of course the answer is be better all the time including on nat TV, but to do that you need to recruit real players. This is definitely part of the vicious cycle.

Also spot on about the diff in hs and portal recruiting. RJ was asked about that difference in a presser last year. She said as an 18 yr old hs player it’s all about nattys and coaches who can do that. She said the second time it's much more about where you fit in and where you feel at home. And who can get a player like her to the next level. All of that plays exactly to KJH strenghts and weaknesses.
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You have to show you can coach with less talent before talent starts to take notice.
 
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#8
#8
glv98 said:
Right. And doing more w less has not been one of this staff's strengths. Witness our games wo Rickea.

Now there's a new nightmare - doing less w more now that RJ is back.
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Don’t disagree on that.
 
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#9
#9
This is sad. The predictable results of 2 straight coaching hire malpractice. Not a soul could muster a whimper of objection when the first "feel good" hire was made. Most didn't when the 2nd "feel good" was made. Now Mr. White is gonna have to prove himself and actually hire "best on the market". Unfortunately our Blue Chip stock is not what it once was. We've lost a lot of ground and we're teetering on the brink of being just one of the pack trying to do the same.
 
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#10
#10
livefaith said:
This is sad. The predictable results of 2 straight coaching hire malpractice. Not a soul could muster a whimper of objection when the first "feel good" hire was made. Most didn't when the 2nd "feel good" was made. Now Mr. White is gonna have to prove himself and actually hire "best on the market". Unfortunately our Blue Chip stock is not what it once was. We've lost a lot of ground and we're teetering on the brink of being just one of the pack trying to do the same.
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I objected to both of the hires, thanks.
 
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#11
#11
turbovol said:
I objected to both of the hires, thanks.
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Alot of people did. Esp the second one. But no one could overcome what was basically 2 hires of convenience doggedly demanded by the old guard. KJH hire was a dream for Fulmer. She literally fell into his lap w a S16 run. Got the OG off his back, she's a beloved and lovely person and it allowed him to get back quickly to what he really cared about. No outside objections were going to challenge that.
 
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#12
#12
livefaith said:
This is sad. The predictable results of 2 straight coaching hire malpractice. Not a soul could muster a whimper of objection when the first "feel good" hire was made. Most didn't when the 2nd "feel good" was made. Now Mr. White is gonna have to prove himself and actually hire "best on the market". Unfortunately our Blue Chip stock is not what it once was. We've lost a lot of ground and we're teetering on the brink of being just one of the pack trying to do the same.
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I believe Holly was recommended by Pat to replace her, (Majors?), so she was anointed to the position. Not taking up for Holly because her results showed she was not HC material but at that time Pat's wishes carried a lot. In Kellie's hire you had an incompetent AD in Fulmer who probably did want to be bothered by hiring a WBB coach as he was involved in the FB program.

Agree with your post it put the LV's program in the same shape the FB program had been in for 12+ yrs with incompetent AD HC hires. White stopped the bleeding with the FB program so its time for him to do the same with the LV's and do as 98's post suggests, make a total break from the past and not look back.
 
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#13
#13
OrangeBeachVol said:
I believe Holly was recommended by Pat to replace her, (Majors?), so she was anointed to the position
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While this is accepted LV canon, some insiders have pushed back on this. The other narrative is Pat wanted to coach another season and was actually holding out for Tyler to replace her, which looking back would have been even worse than Holly. Either way, Pat got unceramoniously dumped by the old AD and unimaginative running of the program won the day.

And yeah, the next one absolutely has to be right, and a clean break. Which is why I'm ok if it doesn't happen quickly, even if the prog takes on more damage.
 
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#16
#16
Holly was getting the job when Pat stepped down. "Should" she have gotten the job? Maybe not, but after what had just gone on during the 2011-12 season Holly was going to be allowed to be the successor. Pat may have wanted to coach another year but her health unfortunately didn't permit it.

Would any other coach have wanted the job then? I highly doubt it. Holly earned the right to try but unfortunately she wasn't HC material overall.

I felt Harper was a good, not great, hire but she did the right things to put herself in the position to try. For whatever reason the school didn't appear to be willing to open their wallet for one of the coaches who had proven themselves elite and it's likely the old guard wouldn't have desired the LVs to be coached by a male. That really limited the number of options available.

I don't see UT ever being at the level of ODU or La Tech because being in the SEC is going to always get a program more attention and fanfare than a less prominent conference. However, the LVs don't have the talent to be nationally competitive right now and even the SEC rank will be middle of the pack at best.

If the LVs miss the tournament, Harper is probably out of a job. The question then becomes who takes her place?
 
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#17
#17
MsSportsGuy said:
Holly was getting the job when Pat stepped down. "Should" she have gotten the job? Maybe not, but after what had just gone on during the 2011-12 season Holly was going to be allowed to be the successor. Pat may have wanted to coach another year but her health unfortunately didn't permit it.

Would any other coach have wanted the job then? I highly doubt it. Holly earned the right to try but unfortunately she wasn't HC material overall.

I felt Harper was a good, not great, hire but she did the right things to put herself in the position to try. For whatever reason the school didn't appear to be willing to open their wallet for one of the coaches who had proven themselves elite and it's likely the old guard wouldn't have desired the LVs to be coached by a male. That really limited the number of options available.

I don't see UT ever being at the level of ODU or La Tech because being in the SEC is going to always get a program more attention and fanfare than a less prominent conference. However, the LVs don't have the talent to be nationally competitive right now and even the SEC rank will be middle of the pack at best.

If the LVs miss the tournament, Harper is probably out of a job. The question then becomes who takes her place?
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I agree with most of your post, however, we have the talent to be nationally competitive,,,but they sit on the bench in important times and get subbed too frequently.

We have 5 players on this team that ANY, including the immediate powers would absolutely love to have:
Tamari, Rickea, Jewel, Jazzy, Jillian
Only two of which have started every game
 
#18
#18
MsSportsGuy said:
Holly was getting the job when Pat stepped down. "Should" she have gotten the job? Maybe not, but after what had just gone on during the 2011-12 season Holly was going to be allowed to be the successor. Pat may have wanted to coach another year but her health unfortunately didn't permit it.

Would any other coach have wanted the job then? I highly doubt it. Holly earned the right to try but unfortunately she wasn't HC material overall.

I felt Harper was a good, not great, hire but she did the right things to put herself in the position to try. For whatever reason the school didn't appear to be willing to open their wallet for one of the coaches who had proven themselves elite and it's likely the old guard wouldn't have desired the LVs to be coached by a male. That really limited the number of options available.

I don't see UT ever being at the level of ODU or La Tech because being in the SEC is going to always get a program more attention and fanfare than a less prominent conference. However, the LVs don't have the talent to be nationally competitive right now and even the SEC rank will be middle of the pack at best.

If the LVs miss the tournament, Harper is probably out of a job. The question then becomes who takes her place?
Click to expand...
Holly was the caretaker the final two years of the program. She was the right coach for the unique moment.
 
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#19
#19
Coach Jumper said:
We have 5 players on this team that ANY, including the immediate powers would absolutely love to have:
Tamari, Rickea, Jewel, Jazzy, Jillian
Only two of which have started every game
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Rickea is a star, Jewel is also pretty good.

Tamari of two year ago would fall in that category but she just isn't able to give them that much (not her fault, just reality). Jasmine Powell is okay but isn't exactly great at decision making, Jillian is incredibly athletic yet hasn't show more than a couple of glimpses she can play in 1.5 seasons.

It's possible another coach could get more out of Powell and Hollingshead but they've not shown me a lot of potential to be an impact player at a top flight program.
 
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#22
#22
If that was the case, we wouldn't be listed in the final few for most of the top recruits that we didn't get.

I can tell you that we were outbid in NIL money on many of these.

GLRedux said:
The following is the Lady Vols' record under Kellie on national tv:

2019-2020: 2 wins 5 losses (2 of the losses by double digit points)
'20 - '21: 3 - 4 ( 3 )
'21 - '22: 4 - 6 ( 5 )
'22 - '23: 4 - 9 ( 5 )
'23 - '24: 0 - 5 ( 3 )

13 wins 29 losses - 18 of the losses by double digits. Yikes!
I wonder if many of the top HS recruits and their advisors watched these games and deemed the LVs not competitive enough against teams they want to play. So, they chose other schools.

If you're asking why are they so successful in portal recruiting, perhaps the older players' priorities are different - want more national exposure regardless of the record, simply want to play against better competition, etc.
Click to expand...
 
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#23
#23
EarlVolFan said:
Hmmm... I guess this explains your relentless anti- Kellie postings....
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Hmmm, not sure how you parleyed that into Kellie but here we are. Somehow you took Pat’s passing as a chance to let Kellie somehow be the focus. You’re better than that…not every post is about this staff.

Believe the kids call this moving the goal post.
 
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#24
#24
EarlVolFan said:
If that was the case, we wouldn't be listed in the final few for most of the top recruits that we didn't get.

I can tell you that we were outbid in NIL money on many of these.
Click to expand...
That’s great and you keep saying that…we weren’t getting them before NIL. I’m sure you have some believing that though. We managed a Top 7 portal class and secured Rickea…but NIL is the problem.
 
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