Iran

[volfanhill]

Okay…it’s started. He is losing support among the America First folks. His support in the Senate is also getting soft. And, you are correct he has probably lost at least the House in the midterms.

House is certainly gone. Senate was pretty safe and now I'd call a toss up leaning Dem. Fighting a war no one wants that drives up prices isn't going to work

 

[MemphisVol77]

Still no comment on the coup? You claimed neither bomb was necessary. Yet after 2 bombs, there was still a coup attempt to prevent surrender.

Just intend on ignoring that because it doesn’t fit your Howard Zinn ignorance?

Hirohito and a few advisors actually anticipated the coup. That was one of the motives behind his speech addressing the nation. It wasn't a live broadcast, but still the first time the populace had heard their emporer's voice. Hirohito's speech helped ensure the war couldn't continue should any coup succeed in taking him hostage or worse.

 

[MemphisVol77]

You want me to address a coup that never happened.....uh. Alright then. The unsuccessful coup that never happened definitely proves your point we should've dropped a second nuke. You got me bro. Argument won. Im thrilled for you

The coup happened.

Maybe this is just a simple matter of definition? A coup doesn't have to be successful to happen.

1: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group
2: a brilliant, sudden, and usually highly successful stroke or act

Definition of COUP

a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group : coup d'état; a brilliant, sudden, and usually highly successful stroke or act… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[EasternVol]

C’mon man. Even Iran acknowledges killing 6000-7000 of their own people. Most put the total far higher. How can you make statements like this and expect to be taken seriously?

That's repression. It's certainly an atrocity but it's not terrorism.
Your comment sounds like 'who needs real information when we have feels and scuttlebutt'. There's been an awful lot of terrorism around the world in the last hundred years from the Zionists in Palestine to the shootings at Bondi, sponsored and perpetrated by a wide variety of actors. What is the possible downside to confirming the main culprits using information and analysis?

Trump has a big mouth and makes regrettable statements (we have spent a whole week walking back his Sun/Mon tweets). But Iran is another level of nuts.

In what way(s) do you think the Iranian regime is nuts? I see them as evil, holding power at all costs, but I also see them as rational.

 

[EasternVol]

"They have no cards, other than these amazing cards"

View attachment 825480

And people call the mullahs crazy.

 

[VAVol85]

That's repression. It's certainly an atrocity but it's not terrorism.
Your comment sounds like 'who needs real information when we have feels and scuttlebutt'. There's been an awful lot of terrorism around the world in the last hundred years from the Zionists in Palestine to the shootings at Bondi, sponsored and perpetrated by a wide variety of actors. What is the possible downside to confirming the main culprits using information and analysis?

In what way(s) do you think the Iranian regime is nuts? I see them as evil, holding power at all costs, but I also see them as rational.

“Feels and scuttlebut”? The lowest estimate I have seen, essentially undisputed is 6000-7000 massacred. That is bad enough. The estimate of 20,000 is from respected sources as I have cited here before and certainly not scuttlebutt.

I am happy to accept the term repression in lieu of terrorism. But, that wasn’t the argument, you were suggesting Trump was crazier than the Iranian leaders. Killing their own people in large numbers rather than accepting widely popular changes to their society is crazy…and evil.

I don’t follow the comments I marked in italics - that seems to be separate from the issue of who is crazier Trump or IRGC.

 

[EasternVol]

The basis for the ceasefire was to give diplomacy a chance

That's something, Diplomacy was on track until we and Israel started bombing.

 

[EasternVol]

We’re gonna end up using our LCS ships to pick up their effing mines…. Because they told us to.

Flawless Victory.

Maybe those ships can do that effectively. As much as they cost it would be good if they could serve a purpose.

 

[EasternVol]

“Ironic” is a word that is overused, but probably appropriate for McNamara making those comments. He sounds like an old man trying to make amends.

He sounds like an old guy who's given a lot of thought to what he and his colleagues have done.

 

[MemphisVol77]

They like to pretend it was justified bc BP, which want even a US company, was about to lose its ass

Without US involvement, Iran would have been a Soviet satellite state like the east bloc post WW2.

Had we not stayed involved almost a decade later it may have gotten messier. I think England would have enforced the original terms of the BP contracts which were more stringent than the revised deal we helped mediate.

I'm not saying we're the "good guys", but we're not the villains.

Meh. The government was all in. And they were gods

Damn me. Stop this. Not the thread for this.

Little toe connected to the neckbone.........

Had we broken the allied unanimity agreement of the 1943 Casablanca conference and allowed Japan a conditional surrender, Stalin probably never with drawals from Iran.........


@Ttucke11 , "Revisionist History" is applicable to any supposition that we could have allowed Japan a conditional surrender.

 

[EasternVol]

“Feels and scuttlebut”? The lowest estimate I have seen, essentially undisputed is 6000-7000 massacred. That is bad enough. The estimate of 20,000 is from respected sources as I have cited here before and certainly not scuttlebutt.

I am happy to accept the term repression in lieu of terrorism. But, that wasn’t the argument, you were suggesting Trump was crazier than the Iranian leaders. Killing their own people in large numbers rather than accepting widely popular changes to their society is crazy…and evil.

I don’t follow the comments I marked in italics - that seems to be separate from the issue of who is crazier Trump or IRGC.

You're mixing two separate points: whether Iran is the world's biggest terrorist and whether their regime is crazy. My first two paragraphs were about terrorism and the third was about them being crazy. So whether killing protesters is terrorism or repression is very much key to that point.

 

[MercyPercy]

I think you have the order of those events a little backward. And FTR they called their own navy unfit

Why are you lying? Sad.

 

[MontyPython]

If we are actually hitting their pistachios to benefit the Resnicks, that's terrible

Prolly cause they were the red ones.

Good riddance.

 

[TVOLS]

Operation Epic Fury U.S. Aircraft Losses Visualized

Here are all the known American aircraft losses during the nearly six week-long war with Iran.

www.twz.com

 

[Vol8188]

Perhaps that insane dictator doesn't exist if we don't conspire with England to overthrow their government in the first place.

Perhaps that insane dictator doesn't exist if we don't conspire with England to overthrow their government in the first place.

Perhaps if he did not attempt to dissolve congress and steal British assets there would have been no need for such actions.

Either way over two decades later, they chose the ayatollah. We don’t pick him for them. Our biggest sin there was not being more proactive like we were in 1953 and allowing the ayatollah to take control.

The west built middle eastern wealth and then foolishly allowed it to be nationalized and controlled by dictators across the region.

 

[Vol8188]

We played our part; we're far from blameless there.

The US didn’t pick the ayatollah. I think the US and UK should have been more proactive in preventing him from taking power, but we both know you disagree with that

 

[Vol8188]

Evidently ttuck isn’t aware of how fanatical the Japanese were and what they had prepared to do for defense of their homeland. It was going to be island to island and house to house. Yes, they were beaten but they still had plenty of soldiers and citizens wiling to die to defend it. I don’t like innocent people getting killed but when faced with the question of 40,000 civilians versus one million potential American casualties, I’ll have to take Door #1.

I think he’s likely under 30 and gets his geopolitical views from losers like Tucker Carlson who intentionally skew all historical events in favor of their “America real bad” narrative

 

[Vol8188]

Why are you lying? Sad.

Be specific. What did I lie about?

 

[rekinhavoc]

The US has several options to counter Iranian mines. These are some key assets.

The U.S. Navy decommissioned its only four minesweepers in the Middle East last year, but still maintains other counter-mine capabilities it can deploy.

www.navytimes.com

 

[volfanhill]

Perhaps if he did not attempt to dissolve congress and steal British assets there would have been no need for such actions.

Either way over two decades later, they chose the ayatollah. We don’t pick him for them. Our biggest sin there was not being more proactive like we were in 1953 and allowing the ayatollah to take control.

The west built middle eastern wealth and then foolishly allowed it to be nationalized and controlled by dictators across the region.

Why would we involve ourselves in a foreign countries affairs bc their leader dissolved Congress? Why would we involve ourselves in other countries bc a different foreign country private business had assets seized? Sounds like we did a ton of dumb shat that helped create this mess

 

[Shrimp&Grits&Vols]

We are about to pay $6 billion to open the straight of Hormuz that was open for free a few months ago. The art of the deal

 

[MemphisVol77]

Why would we involve ourselves in a foreign countries affairs bc their leader dissolved Congress? Why would we involve ourselves in other countries bc a different foreign country private business had assets seized? Sounds like we did a ton of dumb shat that helped create this mess

The same reason we let Stalin occupy Eastern Europe yet drew the proverbial line in the sand over his occupation of that country 8 years prior.

To protect the petrol dollar, hopefully keep the region from becoming too unstabilized, and most importantly; to prevent communist influence from gaining a foothold.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

We are about to pay $6 billion to open the straight of Hormuz that was open for free a few months ago. The art of the deal

 

[EasternVol]

The US didn’t pick the ayatollah. I think the US and UK should have been more proactive in preventing him from taking power, but we both know you disagree with that

The other option was the Communists and that wasn't going to happen. By 79 the Shah staying in power was no longer viable. In hindsight we should have had a plan to get the Shah to introduce democracy before then, but then that's never really been our priority.

 

[tim]

The other option was the Communists and that wasn't going to happen. By 79 the Shah staying in power was no longer viable. In hindsight we should have had a plan to get the Shah to introduce democracy before then, but then that's never really been our priority.

What countries in the ME have democracies?