Iran

[Smokey123]

Nice to see D4H acts the same here as he does in the recruiting forum

 

[NashVol11]

Or we could just sit back and watch as those who've called for the death of America to get a nuclear weapon and use it or threaten it's use.

I agree there is a time for everything, we just disagree on where we are on the clock.

If Taiwan announced it was close to developing a nuclear weapon as deterrence to China do you believe for a single second they would allow Taiwan to achieve it? No way. Every nation looks it for it's interests and the interests of it's allies. Since the beginning of time it's been when these interests clash is where conflict begins.

We have allegedly been at "this point in the clock" perpetually for like half a century

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Are people actually arguing that a government isn't evil even though it will jail women for not wearing head covers and allows life imprisonment for gay sex acts. And most of these posters come off as liberal? What the hell is the matter with yall?

The present Iranian government is a response to something we did. Iran used to be secular like us with women wearing miniskirts and western values and we toppled that secular government in 1953 and installed a dictatorship that oppressed the Iranian people.

When people get desperate they turn to religion. So the Iranian people thought the only way they could defend themselves from western aggression is to turn back to their faith. They tried to be good western secular folk and we said nope here's a dictator. It's natural they would turn to something else in a defensive posture against more American aggression.

 

[Smokey123]

None of that is even true. Gay people can't get married in Israel and "thrown off of buildings" gets said a lot with zero examples. All of that is completely irrelevant to the morality of slaughtering civilians

Ya not thrown off buildings just executed. Thrown off buildings is where I draw the line too

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Which non muslim states allow for killing gays?

The Christian majority country of Uganda. Who by the way were heavily influenced by evangelical Americans when creating their new law imposing capital punishment for homosexuality. So it's actually our Christian right that influenced the only non-Islamic country that has the death penalty for homosexuality.

 

[Ritzwatch]

Not really. I responded to it multiple times already. You can't justify using nuclear weapons because the other side used conventional weapons or that a conventional war would be too costly in terms of lives. Imagine if Russia dropped nukes on Ukraine saying they had to do it because a ground war would be too costly in terms of lives. Would they be justified?

The only justification for ever using nuclear weapons is in response to someone else using nukes. Since nobody used nukes against us, we were unprovoked in dropping two nukes on Japan.

You have an interesting definition for “unprovoked.”



(By “interesting” I mean “silly.”)

 

[kiddiedoc]

The present Iranian government is a response to something we did. Iran used to be secular like us with women wearing miniskirts and western values and we toppled that secular government in 1953 and installed a dictatorship that oppressed the Iranian people.

When people get desperate they turn to religion. So the Iranian people thought the only way they could defend themselves from western aggression is to turn back to their faith. They tried to be good western secular folk and we said nope here's a dictator. It's natural they would turn to something else in a defensive posture against more American aggression.

This may be the dumbest post I've read in the PF. And that's saying a lot.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You give them a pass for their human rights abuses.

No I'm not. I'm just rejecting the argument that their human rights violations justify starting a war with them. That's why I cited other countries with similar human rights abuses. It wasn't to justify the abuse. It was to show the hypocrisy of those who want us to attack Iran but ignore the other countries who have the same human rights violations.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

What exactly have we 'done to them'?

We deposed their secular democratically elected government and installed a brutal dictatorship so British Petroleum could have access to their oil. This is well established history.

The brutal dictatorship of the Shah was the direct catalyst that led to the Islamic revolution in Iran that has ruled for the last 40+ years.

 

[KB5252]

We have allegedly been at "this point in the clock" perpetually for like half a century

So it was bound to eventually be correct. I mean that really isn't of interest, only the here and now. They openly admitted enriching to near weapons grade status. That's their word and isn't disputed by anyone.

If they have already developed the ignition mechanism they'd be ready to go within weeks to months. Either they wanted to develop the weapon or use that last phase of development as leverage.

If they gained that leverage that would trigger a nuclear arms race in the region........ And that's the last thing that's needed there......or anywhere for that matter.

 

[NashVol11]

No I'm not. I'm just rejecting the argument that their human rights violations justify starting a war with them. That's why I cited other countries with similar human rights abuses. It wasn't to justify the abuse. It was to show the hypocrisy of those who want us to attack Iran but ignore the other countries who have the same human rights violations.

People always need a hook to talk themselves into supporting a war, and usually it's "they are evil and we had no choice/it's better this way." And they really talk themselves into this Disney Channel "good guys vs. bad guys" version of events

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I've said repeatedly I was troubled by hitting their nuclear facilities but we were the only ones that could do it. If that's what we did I was reluctantly ok with it.

I'm also not blinded to the idea that Iran will likely respond. But I expect that response to be something along the lines of what we've seen in the past.

I'm no more naive than you are hysterical, neither you nor I know what comes next. Obama struck in Syria and Libya and I don't remember you getting all foghorn leghorn about being at war then, maybe you did and I missed it.

All we know is what's happened to this point, cheering on the worst case scenario for I told you so's is ridiculous. Let's see how it plays out without getting all worked up.

There was not a drum beat to War with Syria and Libya for 20+ years like there has been with Iran. If you think this will be anything like Syria and Libya you're extremely naive. They're already setting us up for a prolonged conflict by walking back all that victory talk last night. Soon they'll be saying we need troops on the ground to fully take out their facilities. This will be another middle east quagmire for a generation and we can thank another Republican president for that.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Yes. Are you slow? We saved both Japanese and American life's. And you are known liar. So here we are

So you would support Russia dropping a nuke on Ukraine to save both Ukrainian and Russian lives? LOL.

 

[NashVol11]

10 days ago. Facts really haven't changed since then, just more propaganda and now look at this thread

 

[KB5252]

Bad foreign policy brought us this regime. That is fact. Using that as a justification of why we shouldn't act against their nuclear weapons ambitions makes zero sense.

We played a part in creating this mess........ So we shouldn't act against them and allow them to start an arms race in the region......... That is about the dumbest possible argument that could be made.

 

[NashVol11]

Reassuring...

 

[KB5252]

There was a drum beat to War with Syria and Libya for 20+ years like there has been with Iran. If you think this will be anything like Syria and Libya you're extremely naive. They're already setting us up for a prolonged conflict by walking back all that victory talk last night. Soon they'll be saying we need troops on the ground to fully take out their facilities. This will be another middle east quagmire for a generation and we can thank another Republican president for that.

Can you give me the lotto numbers for the next drawing?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Or we could just sit back and watch as those who've called for the death of America to get a nuclear weapon and use it or threaten it's use.

I agree there is a time for everything, we just disagree on where we are on the clock.

If Taiwan announced it was close to developing a nuclear weapon as deterrence to China do you believe for a single second they would allow Taiwan to achieve it? No way. Every nation looks it for it's interests and the interests of it's allies. Since the beginning of time it's been when these interests clash is where conflict begins.

Why would Iran want the "Death of America" if we stopped our aggression toward them and support for Israel? Once again yall act like Iran was born hating us. Our actions are why the relationship is hostile. If we weren't trying to constantly topple their government like Russia and China we would have a good relationship with them like those other non-Islamic countries.

The idea that the Iranian are just out to kill us for no reason other than the fact we exist is just not true. Our actions in aggression toward them are why they hate us. If we weren't aggressive toward them they would be friendly with us just like they are with non-Islamic Russia and China.

 

[NashVol11]

Israeli government officials and everyday citizens constantly call for death and war crimes against others, and they have nukes. Are they days away from starting a nuclear war too?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You have an interesting definition for “unprovoked.”

(By “interesting” I mean “silly.”)

Well obviously I'm talking unprovoked in the context of using nuclear weapons. Just because two nations engage in war using conventional weapons doesn't mean they were provoked to use nukes. By that logic Russia could drop a nuke on Kiev because Ukraine provoked them by using conventional weapons.

Realize the context of what's being debated buddy.

 

[KB5252]

Why would Iran want the "Death of America" if we stopped our aggression toward them and support for Israel? Once again yall act like Iran was born hating us. Our actions are why the relationship is hostile. If we weren't trying to constantly topple their government like Russia and China we would have a good relationship with them like those other non-Islamic countries.

The idea that the Iranian are just out to kill us for no reason other than the fact we exist is just not true. Our actions in aggression toward them are why they hate us. If we weren't aggressive toward them they would be friendly with us just like they are with non-Islamic Russia and China.

they've struck against our interests, we've fine the same. Not trusting, sure. There is mutual animosity. But they have struck our interests and Israel for decades. They've committed aggressive acts, as have we.

That entire explanation is extremely naive. Not everyone is going to get along, sometimes for good reason, other times for no reason.

Every country looks out for their interests, when the interests clash there is animosity. Iran has been openly hostile for decades. We should just have been nicer............

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

This may be the dumbest post I've read in the PF. And that's saying a lot.

So history is dumb to you. Everything I posted is historically justified. Before the Shah was put in place by the United States and Britain, Iran had a secular democracy where women were free to wear miniskirts and bikinis in public. The Islamic Revolution was in response to the toppling of this democratically elected government and the imposition of the brutal dictatorship of the Shah (who we supported).

If the United States never deposed the secular Iranian government it's likely the Islamic Revolution never happens and we have friendly relations with Iran like almost every other secular democracy. Whether you like it or not we created the Iran of today.

 

[KB5252]

I've enjoyed the debate though. No hate towards either of y'all we just disagree. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. We'll just have to see what develops.

 

[NashVol11]

they've struck against our interests, we've fine the same. Not trusting, sure. There is mutual animosity. But they have struck our interests and Israel for decades. They've committed aggressive acts, as have we.

That entire explanation is extremely naive. Not everyone is going to get along, sometimes for good reason, other times for no reason.

Every country looks out for their interests, when the interests clash there is animosity. Iran has been openly hostile for decades. We should just have been nicer............

I don't think the notion that it makes sense they hate us because we keep wrecking the Middle East, and destroying it further is not a good way to deescalate, is particularly naive. IMO it's pretty naive to think they are about to drop nukes on us just because that's the propaganda we're force-fed 1,000 times a day

 

[tbh]

So in a hypothetical universe where Ukraine attacked Russia first, Russia would justified in using a nuclear bomb against Ukraine? You know good and well nobody would think Russia would be justified in using nukes against Ukraine regardless of who attacked first. You just zeroed in on that because it was the only difference you could find.

If, in your hypothetical universe (wherever that may be), Ukraine was essentially a fortified island chain and was the primary aggressor...yes. In the world the rest of us live in, the same circumstances (ability to defend land borders, logistics, etc) are not apples to apples. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified because they ended the war more cleanly and with likely fewer lives lost than a conventional land invasion. Stick to your barbershop history about "hair culture".