Improvement under CBJ

[VOLINVONORE]

So, just to summarize, you definitely have nothing of substance to offer and are going to just randomly throw out some insults about someone's age, without any sort of visual confirmation? Strong stance.

I don't think you would recognize anything of substance, so we will gain nothing by continuing this.

 

[KBVol]

I think the answer rests in getting new offensive coaches. We had the opportunity to do it and instead made a hire so bad Fulmer chuckled.

We had a stud offensive line at one point in the Jones era. They really didn't perform all that well. Now that the talent level has dropped, the production has tanked. We've had junior and senior QBs. We haven't been able to get them to produce. We have highly regarded wide receivers. Big guys, fast guys, tall guys, shifty guys. The whole assortment. None of them can get off press coverage. We've got the running back tandem that any team in the country would die to have. At some point it's not just about missing pieces.

Difficult to argue with any of this.

 

[BanditVol]

+1. I've grown sick and tired of hearing the pitch "we're the youngest team in football...we've played this many freshmen....blah.blah.blah."

There will always be some kind of excuse. Part of the reason he has to play so many freshmen is that he either didn't recruit well enough his first year (most of the OL are 3* recruits, as are our starting DT's), mis-evaluated (Dontavius Blair?) or he has failed to develop them.

He has two Behemoth's...both were either 4* or 5*...Charles Mosley and Khalil McKenzie....who are getting scant if any playing time. Something is wrong with this picture. Mosley should be starting either on the DL or OL...and McKenzie is not only the biggest DT we have by far, but the by far the most talented. SCREW this crap of easing him in slowly! Get him in the freakin game!

I'm convinced that if K-Mac and Tuttle had been rotated in regularly in the 2nd half of the OU game, we come away with a win. One reason their offense was suddenly able to produce late in the game is because Janzek coached scared and wouldn't rotate the defensive players. They got gassed and it showed.

There was a lot of talk in preseason camp that Kahlil needed conditioning. I can believe that, since he missed his entire senior year. :yes:

 

[jenkins76]

Fact is we have beaten FL only 5 times since 1990. And it's the weight of that record, along with current losing streaks to BAMA, and UGA, that he's carrying on his shoulders.

I'll keep saying it... This is a program issue, not a single coach. Fulmer, Dooley, and Kiffin & Jones have combined 1 win against those teams since 2008.

Uh, why only include the year that got Fulmer canned? He beat UGA 2 years in a row prior to that. And Kiffin? A one year coach? Are you implying that he was incapable of beating them since he only went 1-2 in his one season here? And Dooley, come on. That guy couldn't coach the Seahawks to a win over Bama.

Also, for Fulmer, Kiffin, and even a year of Dooley Florida had stud coaches (excluding Zook's three years), as in two of the best ever in college football. McElwain and Muschamp aren't in the same realm.

 

[jenkins76]

There was a lot of talk in preseason camp that Kahlil needed conditioning. I can believe that, since he missed his entire senior year. :yes:

There is no way he is in such bad shape that he can't play a single snap in the first half. Anybody can come in and play a series or two. There is another reason he isn't seeing the field.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

This thread is ridiculous. I need a win in shame like this as much as anyone...

To pin CBJ's coaching accumen, career, job status or what have you on this, or any single game, isn't fair to him, and doesn't acknowledge the fact that our program in general has developed this identity of earring its own.

Fact is we have beaten FL only 5 times since 1990. And it's the weight of that record, along with current losing streaks to BAMA, and UGA, that he's carrying on his shoulders.

I'll keep saying it... This is a program issue, not a single coach. Fulmer, Dooley, and Kiffin & Jones have combined 1 win against those teams since 2008.

And with every loss is just more weight to carry until we start getting back on the plus side.

We need this win today. But it's more for our well being as fans than it is as a referendum on CBJ.

It isn't the weight of the record or streak. It's the fact that we had MORE TALENT than UF had LAST YEAR! What part of that keeps slipping by you and others, making excuses for him?

We have even more talent than they do, THIS YEAR! I mean, I would hate to have to face a Florida team if it had all the talent we have on offense. Heck, on defense, too! Florida fans should be shaking in their boots right now....but they aren't. You want to guess why?

It ain't because of the streak. That only gets you so far, but it doesn't get you a win. It's because they know our staff choked last year, and they choked 2 weeks ago. THAT gives them great comfort and confidence, going into this game.

 

[jenkins76]

I don't think you would recognize anything of substance, so we will gain nothing by continuing this.

Well I'll just have to work relentlessly on continuing to show improvement in critical areas. I've got a lot of youth, so that's a challenge. There's crucial progress being made, though. Every single day. You can't see it, but I can. Just have to keep my nose down and continue to make progress. The substance recognition is coming. Trust me.

 

[jenkins76]

They don't. In every situation you could point to they started in a much better condition than what Butch inherited.

Yeah, Butch took over the worst situation of all time. Ever.

 

[McDad]

Well I'll just have to work relentlessly on continuing to show improvement in critical areas. I've got a lot of youth, so that's a challenge. There's crucial progress being made, though. Every single day. You can't see it, but I can. Just have to keep my nose down and continue to make progress. The substance recognition is coming. Trust me.

You forgot, "grind", and "resiliency".

 

[VOLorNuttin]

There is no way he is in such bad shape that he can't play a single snap in the first half. Anybody can come in and play a series or two. There is another reason he isn't seeing the field.

It's because the staff feels they don't HAVE to...that they can GET BY without starting a true freshman....even though that freshman already has NFL size and talent! I ain't gonna lie...it's REALLY pissing me off seeing K-Mac sitting on the sidelines most of the game.

He was the No.1 reason myself and many others...including those in the media...felt we were ready to take the next step and move back to the top of the SEC E...especially since it is still a relatively weak division.

But, without K-Mac and Tuttle getting the lion's share of snaps...we are practically no different than last year. The team that went 6-6, barely making a bowl game.

We're leaving our 5* DT's sitting on the bench, while the undersized 3*'s are holding it down...down for what? NEXT YEAR?!

Same thing goes for Mosley. If they didn't plan to start him on the OL, they should have kept him on the DL, where we really could have used his massive size in the regular rotation...especially on running downs. I mean, if you put Mosley and K-Mac next to each other in a running situation, we can dictate to the offense, and force them to pass or run on the outside.

I'll go so far as to contend that because we aren't using the size and talent at our disposal, at DT, it's making our DE's jobs harder...and it's why Barnett hasn't had nearly the impact this year as was expected.

 

[jenkins76]

You forgot, "grind", and "resiliency".

Lots of words to remember. That will come with age and experience. Maybe when I'm a 17th year senior like the majority of Oklahoma's roster I'll have it mastered.

 

[jakez4ut]

I'll just say this...we won't be having a top 5 recruiting class again...regardless of whether we have the numbers or not....unless there is major improvement on the field. I don't think even a modest improvement of 8-4 would help much. In order to sustain the Top 10 classes, you HAVE to convert the ones you get into WINS!

?

I absolutely agree that we need to win these games. We've let two (last yr UF, OU this) slip away. That has to stop. No argument

 

[BanditVol]

I think the answer rests in getting new offensive coaches. We had the opportunity to do it and instead made a hire so bad Fulmer chuckled.

We had a stud offensive line at one point in the Jones era. They really didn't perform all that well. Now that the talent level has dropped, the production has tanked. We've had junior and senior QBs. We haven't been able to get them to produce. We have highly regarded wide receivers. Big guys, fast guys, tall guys, shifty guys. The whole assortment. None of them can get off press coverage. We've got the running back tandem that any team in the country would die to have. At some point it's not just about missing pieces.

Again we see the myth of OL under performance in 2013. That line led us to our best rushing attack since 1998 in spite of not having a true stud back and was top 25 in sacks allowed.

It's just that people blame the OL because we didn't win. We didn't win because Worley was our QB with only 4 previous starts, we had almost no experience at WR, and our D sucked.

The OL actually performed very well in 2013.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

There was a lot of talk in preseason camp that Kahlil needed conditioning. I can believe that, since he missed his entire senior year. :yes:

In that year, and all Spring and Summer long, he's had plenty of opportunities to get/stay in shape. He was in the S&C program this summer, so I'm not buying that conditioning crap. It's nothing but fan speculation.

It's a matter of Butch and Janzek's reluctance to play freshmen, feeling they can get by with the average, undersized 3* DT's upperclassmen. You might say "but they've already played so many freshmen, before." That's been out of sheer necessity, and nothing else.

Janzek already saw how special Kirkland was at MLB, but instead, he plays an upperclassmen walk-on...A WALK-ON...in the biggest game of the year, 2 weeks ago.

They always seem to default to seniority over size and talent...even when there is a massive gap between the two, concerning the latter.

 

[jenkins76]

Again we see the myth of OL under performance in 2013. That line led us to our best rushing attack since 1998 in spite of not having a true stud back and was top 25 in sacks allowed.

It's just that people blame the OL because we didn't win. We didn't win because Worley was our QB with only 4 previous starts, we had almost no experience at WR, and our D sucked.

The OL actually performed very well in 2013.

Methinks they'd have performed exceptionally well if we weren't running a read option with a guy who was not an option.

They weren't terrible, but they certainly didn't live up to their potential. When you have almost all seniors and multiple guys go on to the NFL, you should be absolutely dominant. We lost to Vandy. At home.

 

[jenkins76]

In that year, and all Spring and Summer long, he's had plenty of opportunities to get/stay in shape. He was in the S&C program this summer, so I'm not buying that conditioning crap. It's nothing but fan speculation.

It's a matter of Butch and Janzek's reluctance to play freshmen, feeling they can get by with the average, undersized 3* DT's upperclassmen. You might say "but they've already played so many freshmen, before." That's been out of sheer necessity, and nothing else.

Janzek already saw how special Kirkland was at MLB, but instead, he plays an upperclassmen walk-on...A WALK-ON...in the biggest game of the year, 2 weeks ago.

They always seem to default to seniority over size and talent...even when there is a massive gap between the two, concerning the latter.

Khalil isn't getting first half snaps. Unless one believes he needs two hours of bench rest prior to entering the game, conditioning is not the issue. He might legitimately not be the best option. Or he might be yet another in a long line of headscratching personnel decisions. I know he was very disruptive in limited time against OU.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

If Butch wants to make the occasional reference to the youth at some positions on the team or to some young players in particular, that's fine, that's appropriate, no issue. No problem there.

It's the BS comments like "this team is actually younger this year than last year's team" and all the contorted "we're so young" statistics that a lot of people are getting sick of. Just shut up with the excuses and win the games you should win and about 98% of the critics will shut up and get firmly back in your corner.

Agreed. We all know he is only bothering to mention those things for one reason only. To insulate himself from the barrage of criticism, should he fail to produce.

I really don't want to go through another coaching change and I hope Butch adapts...not by making more excuses, but by putting the pedal to the metal all game long, and quits coaching scared in the 2nd half of games....and quits sitting our biggest and best players (ie., K-Mac, Tuttle, Phillips and Charles Mosley) on the sideline...because of their youth.

If you're going to use YOUTH as an excuse, then by jolly, get your best YOUTHFUL guys out there on the field! That tendency is part of his and Janzek's coaching scared.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

Khalil isn't getting first half snaps. Unless one believes he needs two hours of bench rest prior to entering the game, conditioning is not the issue. He might legitimately not be the best option. Or he might be yet another in a long line of headscratching personnel decisions. I know he was very disruptive in limited time against OU.

It's just sheer physics, in this case. K-Mac has very little body fat for a DL, and yet he weighs 350lbs.

His legs are almost twice the size of the other DT's, and THAT is what gives him the ability to drive OL into the QB's face, when he drops back to pass. Pressure up the middle is the No.1 way to ruin a team's passing game. When the QB cannot step up in the pocket, they are sitting targets for the DE's coming off the edge.

By leaving K-Mac on the bench, we are voluntarily forfeiting those big plays. He and Tuttle are the best DT's on the roster, bar none...youth or not. And the longer the staff uses them sparingly, the more angry I become with this staff. We shouldn't have to....."wait til next year."

But their decision to ease K-Mac, Tuttle, Phillips and Charles Mosley into the game (ie, next year) is effectively the same as Butch saying....WAIT TIL NEXT YEAR!

 

[jakez4ut]

In that year, and all Spring and Summer long, he's had plenty of opportunities to get/stay in shape. He was in the S&C program this summer, so I'm not buying that conditioning crap. It's nothing but fan speculation.

It's a matter of Butch and Janzek's reluctance to play freshmen, feeling they can get by with the average, undersized 3* DT's upperclassmen. You might say "but they've already played so many freshmen, before." That's been out of sheer necessity, and nothing else.

Janzek already saw how special Kirkland was at MLB, but instead, he plays an upperclassmen walk-on...A WALK-ON...in the biggest game of the year, 2 weeks ago.

They always seem to default to seniority over size and talent...even when there is a massive gap between the two, concerning the latter.

So just because of your opinion on kmacs conditioning do you believe that it's not an issue?

And ALWAYS seniority over talent? I guess Hurd, Barnett, etc getting plenty of starts / playing time last year is easily excusable or explainable in a light that will support your stance on the issue?

 

[patrick]

I do not believe that margin of loss is really an accurate way to determine improvement in a program. It all boils down to wins and losses!

 

[VOLorNuttin]

So just because of your opinion on kmacs conditioning do you believe that it's not an issue?

And ALWAYS seniority over talent? I guess Hurd, Barnett, etc getting plenty of starts / playing time last year is easily excusable or explainable in a light that will support your stance on the issue?

Hurd and Barnett are simply because we have no other choice. We didn't have ANY talent at those positions. Vareen is ok, but he was a 3* for a reason. His production last year and this year bears that out.

As I said, when the staff plays freshmen, it's typically because they really don't have much of a choice. Some of it comes down to the position coach (Azanni has played more freshmen than most other staff members), but ultimately it's a call the HC has to agree with.

 

[jenkins76]

So just because of your opinion on kmacs conditioning do you believe that it's not an issue?

And ALWAYS seniority over talent? I guess Hurd, Barnett, etc getting plenty of starts / playing time last year is easily excusable or explainable in a light that will support your stance on the issue?

There is zero probability conditioning is the only issue. Unless you believe the Vol Walk leaves him so winded he needs multiple hours to recover, there is another reason he isn't seeing the field.

 

[jakez4ut]

Hurd and Barnett are simply because we have no other choice. We didn't have ANY talent at those positions. Vareen is ok, but he was a 3* for a reason. His production last year and this year bears that out.

As I said, when the staff plays freshmen, it's typically because they really don't have much of a choice. Some of it comes down to the position coach (Azanni has played more freshmen than most other staff members), but ultimately it's a call the HC has to agree with.

Predictable, as predicted.

 

[VOLorNuttin]

There is zero probability conditioning is the only issue. Unless you believe the Vol Walk leaves him so winded he needs multiple hours to recover, there is another reason he isn't seeing the field.

I just think it boils down the fact that they are scared to death to leave their fortunes in the hands of 2 freshmen DT....not to mention that it implies to the other DT's that they have effectively been recruited over.

I doubt conditioning is the hold up with K-Mac. If that was it, they could at least bring him in on critical 3rd and short or goal line situations...but they don't. Instead they leave in the undersized Vickers and Williams...which just blows my mind.

 

[jakez4ut]

There is zero probability conditioning is the only issue. Unless you believe the Vol Walk leaves him so winded he needs multiple hours to recover, there is another reason he isn't seeing the field.

Freshmen linemen, on either side, have THE most development to do historically speaking.

It's not, nor should it be, a surprise that kmac isn't dominating at this point.

He's gonna be good. The fact it hasn't happened immediately is not cause for concern or criticism.