If we go 8-4?

[sjt18]

Am I missing something 18? Is this a direct question? Or is there some sarcasm/ulterior motive at play?

2014-
Arkansas 13 Alabama 14
Arkansas 30 OleMiss 0

You can't use those two games without mentioning that Ole Miss beat Bama. Teams and seasons are judged on the whole, not the anomalies.

 

[KBVol]

You can't use those two games without mentioning that Ole Miss beat Bama. Teams and seasons are judged on the whole, not the anomalies.

Arky got off to a slow start but were playing about as well as anybody in the SEC the last 3-4 games of the year. Plus, I don't know how you get a better measurement of which team is better than head to head, especially when one team wins 30-0.

So, on balance were they better than OleMiss all year? No. But I'd very confidently argue that they were better late in the season and, they were surely "even remotely as good as OleMiss or Alabama".

 

[turambar85]

You can't use those two games without mentioning that Ole Miss beat Bama. Teams and seasons are judged on the whole, not the anomalies.

They are also judged on trends, and Arkansas was mighty impressive down the stretch.

They lose by 1 to Alabama, lose by 13 to Georgia, lose to Miss. State by 7, shutout LSU 17-0, trounce Ole Miss, lose by 7 to Missouri, and beat the crap out of Texas. Their average score in those 7 games (ignoring the cupcake UAB game) was (winning) 21-15. And they played, at the time, #7, 10, 1, 17, 8, and 17 ranked teams, plus a Texas team that played with UCLA, barely lost to Oklahoma (before the skid), beat West Virginia, and beat Ok. State easily.

It isn't crazy to think that that is a team as good as any non-playoff team, and is at least a top 15-20 talent.

 

[sjt18]

Arky got off to a slow start but were playing about as well as anybody in the SEC the last 3-4 games of the year. Plus, I don't know how you get a better measurement of which team is better than head to head, especially when one team wins 30-0.

Ole Miss was just the opposite. They were playing as well as anyone in the country at the point where UT played them.

So, on balance were they better than OleMiss all year? No. But I'd very confidently argue that they were better late in the season and, they were surely "even remotely as good as OleMiss or Alabama".

Fair enough.

 

[KBVol]

Ole Miss was just the opposite. They were playing as well as anyone in the country at the point where UT played them.



Fair enough.

No doubt, we, as usual, caught an SECw team at the wrong time. After a decent first quarter and a half, we were absolutely destroyed by a very good OleMiss team.

 

[sjt18]

It isn't crazy to think that that is a team as good as any non-playoff team, and is at least a top 15-20 talent.

Arkansas is top 15-20 in talent? Where would you rank UT then?

I absolutely disagree with the notion that Arkansas has top 20 talent. Give Bielema a ton of credit for what he's done. But great "talent"? No.

 

[turambar85]

Arkansas is top 15-20 in talent? Where would you rank UT then?

I absolutely disagree with the notion that Arkansas has top 20 talent. Give Bielema a ton of credit for what he's done. But great "talent"? No.

Talent was a poor choice of words, but you know what I meant - the overall quality of their team when it comes to an ability to win games over neutral opponents. Come on, be more charitable.

 

[sjt18]

Talent was a poor choice of words, but you know what I meant - the overall quality of their team when it comes to an ability to win games over neutral opponents. Come on, be more charitable.

:good!:

I am kind of sensitive to the use of the word "talent" here because some blur the difference between talent and the other things that result in a player's skill or performance. They then use that blurring to dismiss the impact of coaching on player performance.

Bielema was getting a lot of lemonade out of his lemons by the end of last season. Pinkel does generally and specifically over the past couple of years... though he's caught some huge breaks too.

My hope that has not been positively answered yet is that Jones will both be able to get great talent and then coach it up as well as those guys. He's getting the talent but we haven't really seen clear evidence of the other part yet.

 

[Titan&Volfan4life]

:good!:

I am kind of sensitive to the use of the word "talent" here because some blur the difference between talent and the other things that result in a player's skill or performance. They then use that blurring to dismiss the impact of coaching on player performance.

Bielema was getting a lot of lemonade out of his lemons by the end of last season. Pinkel does generally and specifically over the past couple of years... though he's caught some huge breaks too.

My hope that has not been positively answered yet is that Jones will both be able to get great talent and then coach it up as well as those guys. He's getting the talent but we haven't really seen clear evidence of the other part yet.

I'll have to disagree with you a bit my friend.

I think we have already seen undeniable proof that buTch and staff can coach up our kids.

Last season they took 23 kids right out of high school and coached those 23 true freshmen up well enough that they not only played and helped make positive impacts but also had some of them coached up well enough to become starters.

Good talent coming out of high school is one thing but coaching them up well enough and fast enough to be making solid plays and some of them starting is quite a different thing and proof tat we have a good coaching staff.

Now we need to see that our coaches and players can take another step up and keep showing positive, consistent improvements in the brutal SEC and I think they will starting with draining the swamp and getting the huge WIN at floriDUHHH.

#BrickbyBrick...VFL...GBO!!!

 

[JC61]

Arky got off to a slow start but were playing about as well as anybody in the SEC the last 3-4 games of the year. Plus, I don't know how you get a better measurement of which team is better than head to head, especially when one team wins 30-0.

So, on balance were they better than OleMiss all year? No. But I'd very confidently argue that they were better late in the season and, they were surely "even remotely as good as OleMiss or Alabama".

here is where I beg to differ on judging teams / coaches; Ark had a good latter part of the season. Was it because CBB is a genius....or was it that LSU really wasn't that good and had just run the gauntlet....and/or Ole Miss was a shell of itself after the Auburn game.

Granted...Ark won, but play those games at different times of the season and I'd venture to bet the outcome is way different.

Ark had the benefit of not experiencing the injury bug as bad as a lot of other programs. Plus...they play hard, smash mouth football...wears you down over time and they did it very well against teams that were already wore out by the previous games played.

While I know same can be said of just about any coach / team....I do think it matters when you play certain opponents. Just my perspective. I'm not taking anything away from what CBB and the Ark kids did...it was great, but I just don't think they were as good as some want to portend.

Pinkel may be a different story...what he's done the last 2 years may not be luck....but he too has benefited from timing to a degree. And....some damn good coordinators on the D side of the ball. Will see if his rabbit's foot is primed this year.

 

[Nationdom]

We have so much more talent Than Ark

 

[Titan&Volfan4life]

We have so much more talent Than Ark

We may have more true talent right now and I won't debate that.

Most of our top talent is still going to be sophs and true freshmen so we are still a young, less experienced team.

Knowledge, real game experience and solid, experienced depth does play a part of things in most cases.

That's why you see a lot of 4th year juniors and 5th year seniors on a lot of teams that brings upperclassmen leadership, depth and experience and that does help in many cases during the real game rotations.

#BrickbyBrick...VFL...GBO!!!

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

No. I just know that what I do requires real demonstrations of performance and progress. I work for a company that is over 100 years old in the same industry and one of the largest in the country. We are an aligned supplier for a parent company that is currently the largest in their sector in the US. If I tried the excuses you've attempted here, the consequences for me would not have been good.

Congrats man, but im curious how your job performance relates to rebuilding a football program from the depths of the dumpster.

 

[Nationdom]

Congrats man, but im curious how your job performance relates to rebuilding a football program from the depths of the dumpster.

Sjt18 is my guy. I agree with most of what he says, I just don't have the time or attention span to write it out on a phone. He is one of the few on here who respects me and understands me.

 

[Parys_Prince_of_Troy]

I take a different tack. Win the east, and I will consider that a successful season.
Butch was brought in with a record of building programs to the point where they were competing for their respective conference championships. Competing for the east is a small step in the right direction (e.g. what an 8-4 record would probably indicate). Beating the top teams in our division (FL, GA, MO) is a big step in the right direction (I can't include SC in that list. I live in Charleston and have had to deal with them, face-to-face, during their brief rise and inevitable fall; call it a personal bias, I won't argue with you). None of those games were unwinnable last year, and the trend lines for TN are almost all up, in comparison to both our previous teams and to our competition.
To borrow an analogy from a previous poster (stj18?) going from a C- (6-6 + bowl win) to a C+ (8-4) is progress, but I hesitate to call that success.
A successful 2015 season, to me, is one where we take a big step forward, not a small one, and reestablish ourselves in the East.
Usual caveat: there are generalizations in the post above (I'm waiting for the "What if we're 6-0 in the east next year and finish 6-6?" comment)

 

[sjt18]

Congrats man, but im curious how your job performance relates to rebuilding a football program from the depths of the dumpster.

Principles of management and leadership of organizations are transcendent in many ways and particularly in the ways that the other guy and I were discussing.

To be honest though... I took over a facility with lots of problems. Every person in one department ended up being turned within 4 years with most gone in about a year. So I do understand "purging" old blood and attitudes... and why it often has to be done before moving forward. But... you still have to show results progressively.

We've reorganized and reduced head count by 20% while improving customer service, quality, safety, and profitability. I have great people around me now... and that's the first and most important task of a leader.

My problem is not with Jones but rather with some of the posters here who seem to have no conception of how to get an organization out of a dumpster fire... It ain't by setting low expectations or making excuses or even begging more and more time.

 

[MedicT]

But there are some things about leadership and organizational management that are transcendent. Jones is attempting to succeed in a highly competitive, fish bowl industry. I strongly suspect that it is YOU who cannot relate to that. Else you wouldn't be so evasive about what you do.

Lets simply leave it at my profession is completely performance based and I am found frequently working under bright lights in a team environment with more pressure than you could imagine. LOL

Peace bro, I'll leave you alone.:hi:

 

[sjt18]

Lets simply leave it at my profession is completely performance based and I am found frequently working under bright lights in a team environment with more pressure than you could imagine. LOL

Peace bro, I'll leave you alone.:hi:

Yeah... and I'm sure all those excuses you advocate for Jones work, right? Only if your mommy is school board chairman....

 

[butchna]

Yeah... and I'm sure all those excuses you advocate for Jones work, right? Only if your mommy is school board chairman....

Real high browed...but essentially a YO MOMMA comment. :glare:

 

[chargervol]

Real high browed...but essentially a YO MOMMA comment. :glare:

I'm till trying to figure out what "excuses" everyone keeps talking about.
Thus far, Player development, recruiting and season wins are all on track.
I guess it could be concern over something like a Dobbs injury costing us the 8th win next season but that seems like a fair concern.

It just seems odd that we are right on track with where most felt we should be but some keep throwing the word "excuses" out like there is something to excuse.

This doesn't mean I feel certain Jones will win a NC (is the guy) but waiting for a reason before suspecting negatives, seems more reasonable. However, that goes both ways, I would like to see the results before declaring him "the guy".

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Look, Butch has a history as head coach of building a program until it reaches some critical mass, then achieving breakout success after that. So far, it seems to take him 1-2 years of buildup, then massive Ws start flowing:

• CMU, '07-'09: 16-11 first two years, then 11-2 in the third year
• Cincy '10-'12: 4-8 first year, then 10-3 and 9-3 in successive years

So he does have a proven track record, a pattern of his own. And so far, everything we've seen of him at Tennessee seems to match that pattern.

Folks are just getting antsy. We've been through a lot in the Vols Dark Ages ... you can understand at least a little anxiety on our part that the wheels aren't suddenly going to come off just as it appears we're coming out of the darkness.

 

[Boca Vol]

Look, Butch has a history as head coach of building a program until it reaches some critical mass, then achieving breakout success after that. So far, it seems to take him 1-2 years of buildup, then massive Ws start flowing:

• CMU, '07-'09: 16-11 first two years, then 11-2 in the third year
• Cincy '10-'12: 4-8 first year, then 10-3 and 9-3 in successive years

So he does have a proven track record, a pattern of his own. And so far, everything we've seen of him at Tennessee seems to match that pattern.

Folks are just getting antsy. We've been through a lot in the Vols Dark Ages ... you can understand at least a little anxiety on our part that the wheels aren't suddenly going to come off just as it appears we're coming out of the darkness.

I think I know what you're trying to say but Butch hasn't built a program, yet. He's followed Brian Kelly at both stops. Neither program had been as low as UT, not to mention in probably the best era of the SEC.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I think I know what you're trying to say but Butch hasn't built a program, yet. He's followed Brian Kelly at both stops. Neither program had been as low as UT, not to mention in probably the best era of the SEC.

Ok, but that's focusing on our school. Now focus on Butch and his pattern. He's a "nest builder" (just, his nests are made of brick). Before he opens his throttle all the way, he comes in and establishes his values, his standards, his expectations and his system. He's not Brian Kelly, these are his own. He spends a year or two getting that all in place. Getting the players and coaches available to him reshuffled to fit his system. Bringing in more talent if needed, but getting everything aligned right either way. Once he has things to his liking, he starts winning a lot more than he did in the "nesting" years.

Can you honestly say that you don't think he's prepping his coaching staff, players, university, and us the fans for a breakout? One even he can't predict with any exactitude, but knows will come because he has faith in his methods? I think it's clear that this is exactly what's happening here. Just as it happened everywhere else he's been a head coach.

When you're the Cincy coach, your 12 opponents for the year probably seem just as challenging for YOUR program as the SEC opponents do to the Volunteers' head coach. It's all a matter of perspective. To understand what I'm saying, you gotta see things from Butch's angle, not ours as permanent Vol fans.

 

[Boca Vol]

Ok, but that's focusing on our school. Now focus on Butch and his pattern. He's a "nest builder" (just, his nests are made of brick). Before he opens his throttle all the way, he comes in and establishes his values, his standards, his expectations and his system. He's not Brian Kelly, these are his own. He spends a year or two getting that all in place. Getting the players and coaches available to him reshuffled to fit his system. Bringing in more talent if needed, but getting everything aligned right either way. Once he has things to his liking, he starts winning a lot more than he did in the "nesting" years.

Can you honestly say that you don't think he's prepping his coaching staff, players, university, and us the fans for a breakout? One even he can't predict with any exactitude, but knows will come because he has faith in his methods? I think it's clear that this is exactly what's happening here. Just as it happened everywhere else he's been a head coach.

When you're the Cincy coach, your 12 opponents for the year probably seem just as challenging for YOUR program as the SEC opponents do to the Volunteers' head coach. It's all a matter of perspective. To understand what I'm saying, you gotta see things from Butch's angle, not ours as permanent Vol fans.

The longest he's ever been anywhere is 3 years. That doesn't go with what you typed.

Now, based on what you typed, I'd love to see that at UT. No doubt Butch has increased the talent since he's been here. But if this was his "normal" this would be his last season in Knoxville. Don't see him leaving.

 

[sjt18]

I'm till trying to figure out what "excuses" everyone keeps talking about.

It would take you awhile but my argument over that has been primarily with MedicT. You'd have to read his posts going back yourself.

Thus far, Player development, recruiting and season wins are all on track.

Wins are not on track. In both of the last two years (according to Daj's numbers), UT has lost to teams with less talent. Player development has a few holes but some pretty stellar examples as well. Recruiting with regard to talent and rankings has been very good. But there are glaring holes at RB and to some extent DL right now. Dobbs is backed up by 3 Fr. This is because the attrition has been too high and the classes haven't completely accounted for roster needs.

I guess it could be concern over something like a Dobbs injury costing us the 8th win next season but that seems like a fair concern.

This team should be able to win 8 with a Fr at QB. Less than 8 barring extraordinary injuries in multiple position groups will be subpar.

It just seems odd that we are right on track with where most felt we should be but some keep throwing the word "excuses" out like there is something to excuse.

Implicit in your comment that everything is just like it should be... is an excuse... that we should not have expected more.... like a win vs one of the two worst UF teams in the last 25 years.

This doesn't mean I feel certain Jones will win a NC (is the guy) but waiting for a reason before suspecting negatives, seems more reasonable. However, that goes both ways, I would like to see the results before declaring him "the guy".

That's basically what I've said. Those I argue with may say that too... but then claim as you did that he's basically been "successful" to this point and refuse to say when they expect to see results... OR set expectations that are way low or conveniently distant in the future.