How do you identify an up and coming good coach?

#102
#102
JBVolunteer said:
I certainly would not hire a manager based solely on a piece of paper; however the paper represents a foundational understanding of a group of management principles that they have hopefully learned.

That Nick Saban, Dabo Swinney, Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops; he most successful coaches in the last 2 decades all have business management/sports management related degrees is not a coincidence.
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Those guys are good coaches because they had coaching experience at some level before they got their current jobs and are outstanding managers of people. You don't learn how to manage people, or even get a foundational understanding of how to manage people, at school. It's impossible in a classroom environment and is way more of an art than a science. There isn't come cookie cutter, step by step process to follow. You learn through trial and error. I don't think Dabo's bachelor's degree in business and MBA is helping him in the slightest at Clemson.
 
#103
#103
JMSqb11 said:
I feel like Tennessee’s MO has always asked the “money question” when making hired and that is “who is the best coach available we can get for cheap” instead of starting with the “best coach available” and letting money be an item down the list of things.

Feel like that’s why we struck out on “up and comers” like Dooley and Butch. Kiffin has had bad in his career but also some good success as well.

Pruitt is still TBD because he’s still an immature coach but I don’t think he woke up a dummy one day. I want to see him with a new QB for a few games to really gauge him.
the change last year worked out minus two injuries to Maurer.
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i believe this as well - tn won 8 games in a row when JG wasn't giving the ball away. Same coaches - same players mainly and the defense depends on the offense not going 3 and out. The perfect example is the Georgia game - up at halftime and killed in the second half by JG. And on and on and on by JG . Everyone wants another QB and next year u will have Baily and Salter in the mix - firing Pruitt is not going to help tn get better and all this talk about it doesn't help the program or recruiting.
 
#104
#104
docterjaws said:
i believe this as well - tn won 8 games in a row when JG wasn't giving the ball away. Same coaches - same players mainly and the defense depends on the offense not going 3 and out. The perfect example is the Georgia game - up at halftime and killed in the second half by JG. And on and on and on by JG . Everyone wants another QB and next year u will have Baily and Salter in the mix - firing Pruitt is not going to help tn get better and all this talk about it doesn't help the program or recruiting.
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The problem I have with this and I said it last year tons, Pruitt (for his job security) can not afford any mistakes rolling into 2021 with Bailey (the heir) having no serious playing time. That's why i think its absolutely imperative for Pruitt's job to roll with Bailey the rest of the way and get JG to transfer out.
 
#105
#105
What an interesting question. There are so many variables that I don't know one can answer it wholly. My thought is that you determine what your program wants and needs from a culture, philosophical and experience standpoint. Take Scott Frost for example. Great players coach, motivator and won at UCF where others had failed. Brought excitement offensively and did things no one thought possible. A no fail candidate right? Well, Nebraska needs a lot of help and at 1-4 they have yet to become competitive.

This is likely the best comparison to our situation as well. I would have taken Frost w/open arms but understand he was always going to NEB. We would likely be calling for his head like some are for CJP right now yet he would meet all reasonable criteria for an up and comer.

So what makes the difference between a Frost, CJP and Dabo?

1. Where is your program at? Dabo took over a much better program than CJP or Frost did. In other words they should have been better with the talent on the roster. Vols? That means patience and time to recruit and develop players; build depth.
2. Where do you want your program to be and when? For us and possibly NEB it is always a four year investment to know what you have in a coach. In the interim you measure progress by how your players develop, recruiting success and competitiveness against the bellwethers of your conference.
3. Who has shown the ability to win (and do so with the moral compass of your program) in similar circumstances? How did they do it? Is it repeatable in our circumstance? What are the barriers in their way and have they overcome similar challenges in their roles?

Oversimplification but if you allow confirmation bias to see roses where there are only thorns you find yourself where we are. I wish we were making progress but its pretty evident that we are regressing this year. I still stand firm we need another year for sure but anything less than a miracle turnaround in 2021 and we will be answering the OPs question again.....
 
#106
#106
I use the Boy scout principle - Did you leave your predecessor team bettor off before you arrived? Bear Bryant was a journeyman coach - grad assistant at MD, head coach at Kentucky. He did reasonably well there, head coach at aTm. Left aTm in good shape. Finally landed at Tuscaloosa. Saban was I think a graduate assistant at Kent State. He did ok there. He rejuvenated Michigan State into a decent spot. He turned LSU around and gave Miles a good base to work with. This process allow a coach to get beat up alittle and to get some valuable experience.

I love Pruitt but he is only a defensive coordinator! He has coached at marque programs but he has not grown or left his prior school any better.

Although, TN's Coach Fulmer was an internal hire and he did very well. Danny Ford was a punk when Clemson hired him and he did well. Saban and Ford had strong mentors with Don James and Bryant.
 
#108
#108
05_never_again said:
Those guys are good coaches because they had coaching experience at some level before they got their current jobs and are outstanding managers of people. You don't learn how to manage people, or even get a foundational understanding of how to manage people, at school. It's impossible in a classroom environment and is way more of an art than a science. There isn't come cookie cutter, step by step process to follow. You learn through trial and error. I don't think Dabo's bachelor's degree in business and MBA is helping him in the slightest at Clemson.
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I'm not sure I agree with that on the whole. Mainly because of observing my son's experience from high school and more recently in college as he has usually been in team leadership roles in which his grade was ultimately dependent on the (sometimes poor) performance of weaker students. It can be very stressful on the student who has no authority but much of the responsibility. I believe he has gained some leadership skills from these experiences. So, in some cases, management skills can begin to develop in college. Or maybe, I just want to think that because I'm his dad 😁
 
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#109
#109
VFLCodyGBO said:
It’s not easy, you have guys like Pruitt and Mason who have fielded a stout defense everywhere they’ve been but couldn’t cut it.

Then you have guys like Dabo who was just a position coach but matured in to a top HC.

If you’re AD, and you know you can’t go out and hire proven with experience, what characteristics (personality or coaching) are you looking for in an up and coming coach?
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The last thing I want is former assistant with good record who's had 5 star talent to work with.

I'll take the guy who's produced a decent team with mediocre player talent.
 
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#111
#111
VFLCodyGBO said:
It’s not easy, you have guys like Pruitt and Mason who have fielded a stout defense everywhere they’ve been but couldn’t cut it.

Then you have guys like Dabo who was just a position coach but matured in to a top HC.

If you’re AD, and you know you can’t go out and hire proven with experience, what characteristics (personality or coaching) are you looking for in an up and coming coach?
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A lot is fit and personality. Dabo let's his coaches coach. If I remember correctly he kept all but his OC and he ran it. He was an average win/loss coach his first 3 years before he went started winning alot, he didn't win 10 games until year 4. Guys like Saban, Urban and Dabo are rare and all 3 are different types of coaches.
 
#112
#112
JMSqb11 said:
I feel like Tennessee’s MO has always asked the “money question” when making hired and that is “who is the best coach available we can get for cheap” instead of starting with the “best coach available” and letting money be an item down the list of things.

Feel like that’s why we struck out on “up and comers” like Dooley and Butch. Kiffin has had bad in his career but also some good success as well.

Pruitt is still TBD because he’s still an immature coach but I don’t think he woke up a dummy one day. I want to see him with a new QB for a few games to really gauge him.
the change last year worked out minus two injuries to Maurer.
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Well he could have a new qb, that is his decision, but he chooses to stick with jg, a proven loser.
 
#113
#113
DaddyChad said:
We had Mullen but Florida gave him a better opportunity. Now what does Dan Mullen have that some of the others we’ve tried haven’t? Offensive mind, experience coaching in SEC as a head coach. Now who does that sound like that is available?
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We could have had Mullen, but were way to slow to act, and thats the kind of coaches you have the buyouts in their contract, not the ones we have had. Like if we were to get urban put in a huge buyout or a clause with some quota's in it. I don't understand these college coaches contracts at all. The only business I know of that pays someone because they can't do the job and pay them to get fired because of their in ability to succeed. Crazy. Like Pruitt would have taken this job if we had of put a clause in the contract if you don't have a winning record by year 3 you are fired with cause. You probably couldn't get a proven coach with that wording but you could and up and coming coach.
 
#114
#114
cgrish said:
We could have had Mullen, but were way to slow to act, and thats the kind of coaches you have the buyouts in their contract, not the ones we have had. Like if we were to get urban put in a huge buyout or a clause with some quota's in it. I don't understand these college coaches contracts at all. The only business I know of that pays someone because they can't do the job and pay them to get fired because of their in ability to succeed. Crazy. Like Pruitt would have taken this job if we had of put a clause in the contract if you don't have a winning record by year 3 you are fired with cause. You probably couldn't get a proven coach with that wording but you could and up and coming coach.
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Pruitt’s agent had Fulmer over a barrel in that contract. It was like an adult playing dodge ball with preschoolers. There was zero way we were coming out of that contract negotiation with a good deal. Now the extension was just a demonstration in how over his head Fulmer is. Fulmer has been as bad an AD in managing football as Pruitt has been at coaching.
 
#116
#116
De La Cloobs said:
One problem is that we hired a defensive minded coach in an age where offense is what wins games.

And that’s the problem. The administration is incapable of picking winners and losers and even worse at timing. If they were my financial advisor I would be in dire straits
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I've never bought that idea. You can be a defensive guy and still change with the times to keep up. Saban has proven that. You can be an offensive minded guy and field defenses during those eras. Spurrier at UF comes to mind. The best coaches figure it out.

Defense still matters. Its just that one or 2 stops, a couple of fgs instead of tds, or a turnover may be the difference in winning 45 - 41 or losing 41 - 35. Where it used to be 24 - 21 instead of 21 - 17.
 
#119
#119
05_never_again said:
Those guys are good coaches because they had coaching experience at some level before they got their current jobs and are outstanding managers of people. You don't learn how to manage people, or even get a foundational understanding of how to manage people, at school. It's impossible in a classroom environment and is way more of an art than a science. There isn't come cookie cutter, step by step process to follow. You learn through trial and error. I don't think Dabo's bachelor's degree in business and MBA is helping him in the slightest at Clemson.
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It appears they learn to delegate, or in other words let your coaches coach; instead of micr managing. Then the hc can keep his mind on the game at hand and make proper hc decisions.
 
#122
#122
Rickyvol77 said:
It was considered one of the power 6 conferences. It had an automatic BCS bid while butch was coaching there. Again you must be young and don’t remember. Unless you think Miami, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, WVU etc weren’t major conference teams
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When Butch was coaching at Cincinnati the conference was Rutgers, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, South Florida, Temple and West Virginia, though they left it before Butch left. Miami, Boston College and Virginia Tech were long gone. Cincinnati was brought in from Conference USA with 4 other teams to try and keep the corpse alive so they would have 8 football playing schools. It had became a conference made up entirely of 4th rate programs that were, as a rule, 2nd or 3rd fiddle teams in their own state. As soon as it's deal with the BCS ran out they dropped them like a hot potato and the conference collapsed back into being a basketball only league, which they had been before 1991. So Cincy was a G5 school that got to play in a shell conference for about 7 years before the conference collapsed, then they returned to G5.
 
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