How do you identify an up and coming good coach?

[Rickyvol77]

Was it? I always called it "The Big Least". I have only a vague recollection of who was even in right now though, other than Miami.

Miami, Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, WVU, Virginia Tech were the original football Big East and the conference had an Auto Bid to the BCS and won 2 NCs and played for 2 other national titles.

The conference later added Louisville, Cincinnati, UConn, USF after some schools went to the ACC and were on the verge of adding Boise St, TCU, BYU, San Diego St, Navy and Air Force to go with Houston, SMU, Memphis and UCF before it fell through.

 

[vol66]

How do you identify an up and coming coach?

I would look at the guys he’s hired, do they stand out as position coaches?

For instance, I don’t know if I would run out and hire the Buffalo HC, but I certainly would look at the offensive line coach. Film don’t lie.

 

[AstonRoyal]

I feel like Tennessee’s MO has always asked the “money question” when making hired and that is “who is the best coach available we can get for cheap” instead of starting with the “best coach available” and letting money be an item down the list of things.

Feel like that’s why we struck out on “up and comers” like Dooley and Butch. Kiffin has had bad in his career but also some good success as well.

Pruitt is still TBD because he’s still an immature coach but I don’t think he woke up a dummy one day. I want to see him with a new QB for a few games to really gauge him.
the change last year worked out minus two injuries to Maurer.

This is such a false premise. If this were the case we wouldn’t have gone out and gotten kiffin and gave him the budget he needed. Or given Pruitt the money he needed. We have the money, but through a combination of circumstantial bad luck and poor decision making we just haven’t landed on the right coach.

 

[Vols1891]

If I were the AD of a program like Tennessee, Nebraska, Florida State, etc (and let’s just assume I can’t hire a no brainer coach like Urban Meyer), I would try to find someone who has had success actually turning a program around and sustained it over a period of time. So while a coach like Butch had some success at the G5 level, he never actually turned a program around (always followed Brian Kelly) and never stayed one place very long (where he would have to rely solely on his own recruits).

It is still really tough though; it is kind of like when NFL teams are trying to decide what quarterback to draft. Sometimes even guys that seem like a home run hire, such as Harbaugh at Michigan, don’t work out either.

 

[rikberry31]

I'll take asparagus familiarity for $1000, Alex.

Btw, The chances of Beldar ever overcoming his vegetable ignorance, and actually trying something like asparagus is on par with his likelihood of starting Bailey this or next year.

He's gonna stick with chicken nuggets and Mac and cheese. Because, that's what he knows and trusts. Its not delicious or cultured, or healthy, but......It's a common trait among the unenlightened.

"The more you know the less you understand." (Tao te Ching)

Pruitt gets it. He knows he gets it. You can't change his mind.

"The problem with the world is that stupid people are confident while the intelligent are full of doubts" Bukowski.

The problem with Vol football is......

Wow, pretty dagum smart and enlightened. Reckon the only thing your unenlightened on is football.

 

[hUTch2002]

Finding an up and coming coach is NOT what Tennessee needs. They need to pay the big bucks for a top tier proven coach. Or cancel football because they will have a stadium that seats over 100k looking like Vandys stadium before too long....

There’s only a handful in the country and they can go anywhere they want. Then again I suppose it depends on how you define proven. I would think someone with Power 5 experience, that shows the ability to win consistently, and beat teams that are equal to or better than their own. At first I was going to say something like a coach that wins at least 67% of their games at a Power 5 school but Saban only won about 58% of his games at Michigan St. He’s an anomaly though. Luckily, there is a coach out there that fits the bill and might be willing to come to UT, which is generally not the case for a coach that is somewhat proven at a Power 5 school. That’s Hugh Freeze. A lot of people consider proven to include some kind of championship though, even if just in your own division. That would narrow the field down to less than 10 coaches though, eliminate Freeze, and none would come here. To me Freeze looks like the obvious answer but I don’t think we can wait until 2022 to get him. My gut says he ends up at Auburn. If we can’t get Freeze or some other coach as good or better then I say just hang onto Pruitt another year and see what coaches are available next year. Obviously Meyer is floating around out there too and you have to call him if you’re a Power 5 school but I don’t see him coming here either.

 

[hUTch2002]

Following the path of someone like Mullen is ideal. OC for a big time program, then became the HC at a school with low expectations and exceeded them, making him an ideal hire as a HC at a big time program. We did it wrong with Pruitt. We took a DC skipped the step where he proves himself as a HC at a school with limited resources and low expectations

Not necessarily though. Coordinators work out making the direct jump if it’s the right one. Lincoln Riley, Bob Stoops, Mark Richt, Kirby Smart, Fulmer, and others. Now we are seeing some position coaches as well with Dabo doing well and Pittman looking solid early on. That seems like the biggest gamble to me. Whether taking a coordinator, a coach from a non-P5 school, or a Power 5 coach there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why someone succeeds. The right person in the right situation at the right time. Saban is a great example. There was no indication he would win big at LSU when he left Mich St. He won 58% of his games there then went on to win 75% at LSU. Then he goes to the NFL and stunk it up for a short while when Bama came calling. Everyone figured he would do well at Bama but no one knew he would go in a run like this. He has won about 88% of the games at Bama because he hit the right spot at the right time. As much as I hate to say it, we don’t look like the right spot or right time to anyone right now (I’m guessing obviously) so I think we need a coach that can play up. Someone that can beat teams with more talent. Freeze has shown he can and that he can recruit well. I’d take a shot there. He’s not unattainable like most proven coaches.

 

[JMSqb11]

This is such a false premise. If this were the case we wouldn’t have gone out and gotten kiffin and gave him the budget he needed. Or given Pruitt the money he needed. We have the money, but through a combination of circumstantial bad luck and poor decision making we just haven’t landed on the right coach.

That's not true. When we fired Fulmer, we went out and hired Kiffin and went somewhat cheap. See his buyout for leaving as evidence.

With Dooley, we went thru many coaches until we found Dooley who would take Kiffin holdovers on staff. Additionally, we told Cut he couldn't bring the staff he wanted because some where coaches under Fulmer who Hamilton had fired a year earlier.

With Butch, we made strong offer to Charlie Strong only for him to mull it over instead of just offering 500K- 1 Million more to make him say yes. Given that Butch only lasted 5 years here, we should have just overpaid to get Strong here as he was better suited for the SEC and had a chip on his shoulder (UF and his marriage) against our rival. Tennessee was better suited for him than Texas. Regardless, he stayed at Louisville and we settled on Butch only after coming into fold late when he was about to take Colorado job.

The first time UT really forked up money during last decade beside buyouts was letting Butch get Bob Shoop and then Fulmer letting Pruitt hire and fire staff members to upgrade (See Chaney).



Tennessee has never gone into a coaching search where the coach they just fired had a buyout that wasn't on the AD's mind at the time of searching for a new coach.

We have never gone into a search post Fulmer Era where we ask first "Who is the best coach available" without adding "for a cheap budget"....... Tennessee's coaching staff should be one of the top paid staffs in the country with our financial infrastructure outside of Covid. However, we have booster factions and with infighting, it results in this cheap routes. Because why have booster infighting with big money coaching staffs?

Tennessee has never made a serious "top 15 job offer*" to any coach in a coaching search we've had. I'd argue that Mullen was prolly the most money we've offered a coach in some time, but still wasn't a "make them say no" offer.

*See screenshot below of top coaching salaries in College Football.

 

[Creekcat]

I don't know how the search team does it for other schools, but the Tennessee search team is currently 0-4.

 

[cobbwebb0710]

It’s not easy, you have guys like Pruitt and Mason who have fielded a stout defense everywhere they’ve been but couldn’t cut it.

Then you have guys like Dabo who was just a position coach but matured in to a top HC.

If you’re AD, and you know you can’t go out and hire proven with experience, what characteristics (personality or coaching) are you looking for in an up and coming coach?

I think sometimes you have to consider where the “up and comer” is trying to come up at. Clemson has shown a commitment to winning, Tennessee and Vandy, not so much.
GBO!!

 

[cobbwebb0710]

Eventually you have to find a guy that can teach the X’s And O’s and has a true hatred for the bama’s, Florida’s and Georgia’s, makes it personal and instills that same hatred and desire into the players. Recruiting will take care of itself. I question how much most associated with this program currently, truly hate losing to Florida or Georgia. I’m not sure it bothers them and that culture has to change before we even think of taking the next step.
Just my thoughts.
GBO!!

 

[1972 Grad]

Needs to be a former Vol

Rhymes with hatin'

C.J. Fayton? Does he have coaching experience?

 

[VolMarine1371]

I feel like Tennessee’s MO has always asked the “money question” when making hired and that is “who is the best coach available we can get for cheap” instead of starting with the “best coach available” and letting money be an item down the list of things.

Feel like that’s why we struck out on “up and comers” like Dooley and Butch. Kiffin has had bad in his career but also some good success as well.

Pruitt is still TBD because he’s still an immature coach but I don’t think he woke up a dummy one day. I want to see him with a new QB for a few games to really gauge him.
the change last year worked out minus two injuries to Maurer.

Dooley was never an up and comer. He had a losing record as a HC prior coming to Tennessee at LA Tech and I think he only won like 7 or 8 games 1 time. LA Tech improved once’s he left there.

 

[vader]

Let's ask our administration...wait, never mind

 

[DaddyChad]

I guess you think every situation is the same within the conference. The only guarantee Freeze offers our program is 50+ million in debt and a magnifying glass from the NCAA with likely probation 3-5 years down the road. See Auburn basketball for reference.

Did I say I thought every situation was the same in the conference? You can’t guarantee anything just like I can’t. You say we would be gambling with probation possibly; this program has been in worse shape for the last decade with the coaches we continue to hire.

I can only guarantee that freeze has a better record and experience winning within this conference which is more to me than any of these previous coaches. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[05_never_again]

Urban Meyer- bachelor degree in psychology, masters degree in business administration.

Nick Saban- bachelor degree in business, masters degree in sports administration.

Bob Stoops- bachelors degree in business marketing.

————-

Derek Dooley- bachelors in government and foreign affairs, jd in law

Butch Jones- bachelors degree unknown

Jeremy Pruitt- bachelors in teaching


Small sample size I know but I do think that a mastery of organizational/ business management is vital in order to run a successful football program. Our last 3 coaches had none.

Getting bachelors or masters degrees in business or organizational management does NOT mean that you know how to run an organization.

 

[05_never_again]

This is such a false premise. If this were the case we wouldn’t have gone out and gotten kiffin and gave him the budget he needed. Or given Pruitt the money he needed. We have the money, but through a combination of circumstantial bad luck and poor decision making we just haven’t landed on the right coach.

"We don't spend enough money" is a defense mechanism we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better. We'd rather tell ourselves is a relatively simple problem of money as opposed to an incompetent administration and factional booster class.

 

[TennesseeTarheel]

Getting bachelors or masters degrees in business or organizational management does NOT mean that you know how to run an organization.

The MBAs are experts at decimating an organization.

 

[PulaskiVolFan]

Did I say I thought every situation was the same in the conference? You can’t guarantee anything just like I can’t. You say we would be gambling with probation possibly; this program has been in worse shape for the last decade with the coaches we continue to hire.

I can only guarantee that freeze has a better record and experience winning within this conference which is more to me than any of these previous coaches. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Lots of fans, regardless of how bad we've been can accept losing without cheating much more than we can stomach winning a few games for 4 seasons only to be shut completely back down because we were stupid enough to hire a guy coming off the near death penalty just a few short seasons ago, once again see Auburn basketball for reference. I for one am glad we aren't a win at all cost type program and glad we haven't hired all that many win at all cost type coaches over the years. The ones we have hired in Kiffin, Pearl and Tyndall each set our programs back in some form or another. I guess you could care less whether we cheat or not to win nor do you care what type of reputation we have as a program either, curious, do you hold those same values for yourself.

 

[JBVolunteer]

Getting bachelors or masters degrees in business or organizational management does NOT mean that you know how to run an organization.

I agree that not everyone running around with a management degree will make a good manager but if you are looking for a quality manager whether it’s for a billion dollar company or a billion dollar football program; that skill set is required. Just X’s and O’s and recruiting will not get the job done and expecting a high school teacher with no management expertise or experience to run a billion dollar football program is naive at best.

 

[Roustabout]

There is no sure thing. But, the best bet IMO is a coach who has had some success at a lesser P5 program...guys like Freeze, Campbell, etc.

Like Butch Jones?

 

[05_never_again]

I agree that not everyone running around with a management degree will make a good manager but if you are looking for a quality manager whether it’s for a billion dollar company or a billion dollar football program; that skill set is required. Just X’s and O’s and recruiting will not get the job done and expecting a high school teacher with no management expertise or experience to run a billion dollar football program is naive at best.

Right...that skill set is required, not necessarily a degree in those things. As @TennesseeTarheel said there are tons of people running around with those things that have no idea how to manage people or an organization - what they have is a piece of paper that says they made good enough grades in college classes about those topics.

That isn't to say those degrees are useless - I have one myself. But having some credential does not mean that you know what you're talking about or have any particular skill set. It means you did well enough on some tests.

 

[AstonRoyal]

That's not true. When we fired Fulmer, we went out and hired Kiffin and went somewhat cheap. See his buyout for leaving as evidence.

With Dooley, we went thru many coaches until we found Dooley who would take Kiffin holdovers on staff. Additionally, we told Cut he couldn't bring the staff he wanted because some where coaches under Fulmer who Hamilton had fired a year earlier.

With Butch, we made strong offer to Charlie Strong only for him to mull it over instead of just offering 500K- 1 Million more to make him say yes. Given that Butch only lasted 5 years here, we should have just overpaid to get Strong here as he was better suited for the SEC and had a chip on his shoulder (UF and his marriage) against our rival. Tennessee was better suited for him than Texas. Regardless, he stayed at Louisville and we settled on Butch only after coming into fold late when he was about to take Colorado job.

The first time UT really forked up money during last decade beside buyouts was letting Butch get Bob Shoop and then Fulmer letting Pruitt hire and fire staff members to upgrade (See Chaney).



Tennessee has never gone into a coaching search where the coach they just fired had a buyout that wasn't on the AD's mind at the time of searching for a new coach.

We have never gone into a search post Fulmer Era where we ask first "Who is the best coach available" without adding "for a cheap budget"....... Tennessee's coaching staff should be one of the top paid staffs in the country with our financial infrastructure outside of Covid. However, we have booster factions and with infighting, it results in this cheap routes. Because why have booster infighting with big money coaching staffs?

Tennessee has never made a serious "top 15 job offer*" to any coach in a coaching search we've had. I'd argue that Mullen was prolly the most money we've offered a coach in some time, but still wasn't a "make them say no" offer.

*See screenshot below of top coaching salaries in College Football.




View attachment 326771

We got kiffin "for cheap" because he took less money so we could bring in his NFL HOF dad and Orgeron. We had to settle for Dooley after Kiffin left in one year, most people knew that was a detrimental hit to our stock so we settled. Mullen went to florida because that was what he was familiar with being a former OC there.

Besides, it's pretty rare that an AD doesn't have a Buyout on his mind when they're hiring a new coach unless your guy leaves for the NFL or gets a better job.

And Your table doesn't hold much of an arguement because we weren't going to pay Pruitt top 15 dollar if he had never coached at that level before. It's just simple negotiation.

 

[05_never_again]

That's not true. When we fired Fulmer, we went out and hired Kiffin and went somewhat cheap. See his buyout for leaving as evidence.

With Dooley, we went thru many coaches until we found Dooley who would take Kiffin holdovers on staff. Additionally, we told Cut he couldn't bring the staff he wanted because some where coaches under Fulmer who Hamilton had fired a year earlier.

With Butch, we made strong offer to Charlie Strong only for him to mull it over instead of just offering 500K- 1 Million more to make him say yes. Given that Butch only lasted 5 years here, we should have just overpaid to get Strong here as he was better suited for the SEC and had a chip on his shoulder (UF and his marriage) against our rival. Tennessee was better suited for him than Texas. Regardless, he stayed at Louisville and we settled on Butch only after coming into fold late when he was about to take Colorado job.

The first time UT really forked up money during last decade beside buyouts was letting Butch get Bob Shoop and then Fulmer letting Pruitt hire and fire staff members to upgrade (See Chaney).



Tennessee has never gone into a coaching search where the coach they just fired had a buyout that wasn't on the AD's mind at the time of searching for a new coach.

We have never gone into a search post Fulmer Era where we ask first "Who is the best coach available" without adding "for a cheap budget"....... Tennessee's coaching staff should be one of the top paid staffs in the country with our financial infrastructure outside of Covid. However, we have booster factions and with infighting, it results in this cheap routes. Because why have booster infighting with big money coaching staffs?

Tennessee has never made a serious "top 15 job offer*" to any coach in a coaching search we've had. I'd argue that Mullen was prolly the most money we've offered a coach in some time, but still wasn't a "make them say no" offer.

*See screenshot below of top coaching salaries in College Football.




View attachment 326771

Kiffin had the 4th largest salary pool in the SEC at the time he was hired, behind only Saban, Urban, and Richt. Lane's salary was not particularly high, but his staff was extremely well-compensated. His dad in particular. Monte made $1m as DC, which was unheard of at the time.

Since Kiffin, our ability to sign a head coach that would command big money has been impacted by the fact that we stink. We were in no position to hire a proper coach after Kiffin left because of the suddenness and timing of his departure. Dooley, or another coach with a similar type of resume, is the only coach who would come here at that time. That's why the proper play at that time was to make Chaney or Kippy interim and then have all year to do a proper coaching search.

 

[JBVolunteer]

Right...that skill set is required, not necessarily a degree in those things. As @TennesseeTarheel said there are tons of people running around with those things that have no idea how to manage people or an organization - what they have is a piece of paper that says they made good enough grades in college classes about those topics.

That isn't to say those degrees are useless - I have one myself. But having some credential does not mean that you know what you're talking about or have any particular skill set. It means you did well enough on some tests.

I certainly would not hire a manager based solely on a piece of paper; however the paper represents a foundational understanding of a group of management principles that they have hopefully learned.

That Nick Saban, Dabo Swinney, Urban Meyer, Bob Stoops; he most successful coaches in the last 2 decades all have business management/sports management related degrees is not a coincidence.