Hey Governmentmule - softball thread needed

#326
#326
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is Ralph's decision to leave Arnold in the batting order as designated player when he pulled her in the 5th I believe it was. That move didn't seem so smart later when she came up to bat with the bases loaded and popped out to end the inning. But this decision allowed her to pitch the final three outs which she did so very well.
 
#327
#327
LVJeff said:
Somebody told me one time that with female softball players you can tell at a very early age, like 14 or so, whether or not they're going to be any good. The implication being that they really don't improve that much in the next few years. I don't know that I believe that, but I was told that so I offer it up for your consideration.
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I would surmise that that happens even earlier than that with all the young girl fast pitch softball leagues around the country. In my years coaching it and my daughter playing at 10 years old this has been the case. By 12 years of age and the summer leagues and their circuits if those girls have the talent and the potential they are hooked. Even if they have families that cannot afford to carry them all over the states and country someone will.
again just my experience and humble opinion.
 
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#328
#328
sccshortstop said:
I just got through a few minutes ago watching the game. My thoughts is that SC is better than most think even though I think their pitchers are average. More experienced than our but still average. Their right handed hitter and there are several, are big and seldom take a bad swing and also load up them with power. They did not get fooled much at all. Walks is a killer for every team. They do not have a slapping lineup and spray the ball around the park pretty well. Their team was experienced and it looked like it as well. Defense is a adequate and speed ok. Seem to be well coached as well.

The LVs are a young team as we all know . Our top 2 pitchers are a little above average now and I think will turn in to very good ones. Our depth there as in the last several years is nil. Our team speed is great and defense is above average for the most part. Our offense at this time is average at best at this time and we have to depend on Gregg and need Geer to help her a little more. Without Geer hitting teams will pitch around Gregg as they did today. Our other right hand hitters have been at best poor and seem to not know how to hit the ball. Our catcher position is weak from a fundamental standpoing and their offense is as I sad poor. The player at first base seems to have to be Vines because she does hit. Rowland I though would be ready this year and may be but struggling. Seagram is a major improvement at third from last year at 3rd. Seagram has seemed to be lost at the plate today and was swinging for the fences on all 3 strike outs. Outfield speed and defense above average. One think I have noticed all year on the games I have watched which are most that McSwain NEVER gives the pitcher whom ever it is a target. The glove wiggles ever where and as the pitch comes in she puts the glove on the ground to push herself up. I know that that is not her natural position but you would think they have told her to set up a target.
I will take any and all wins and my observation is just mine and it is not any disrespect to anyone.

Finally one other point I would like to make. I have heard Karen say that Aubrey Leach is the best base runner they have ever coached. As we seen today she got us a run by her heads up running. If you guys will notice if you have not, when Aubrey is in the dugout she is right behind Karen every minute learning more about softball and getting wisdom from her. She will make a great coach on day if that is her career aspirations.
JMHO!!!
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Good points all, especially the last paragraph. I hadn't thought about Leach being a coach one day. Maybe she will.
 
#329
#329
LVJeff said:
Somebody told me one time that with female softball players you can tell at a very early age, like 14 or so, whether or not they're going to be any good. The implication being that they really don't improve that much in the next few years. I don't know that I believe that, but I was told that so I offer it up for your consideration.
Click to expand...

I'm probably handicapped in that I really just pay attention to UT on a game by game basis. I watch the SEC and national marquee games but don't really follow the year to year improvement of other team's pitchers. It may very well be that most pitchers advance at about the same rate as ours have.
 
#330
#330
LVJeff said:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is Ralph's decision to leave Arnold in the batting order as designated player when he pulled her in the 5th I believe it was. That move didn't seem so smart later when she came up to bat with the bases loaded and popped out to end the inning. But this decision allowed her to pitch the final three outs which she did so very well.
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Great point Jeff!! What is the worse that could have happened, strike out. At lease she got bat on the ball on 2 swings and that is more than I can say for some others. I will bet if I was a bettor that she hit in HS most every game.
 
#331
#331
sccshortstop said:
I just got through a few minutes ago watching the game. My thoughts is that SC is better than most think even though I think their pitchers are average. More experienced than our but still average. Their right handed hitter and there are several, are big and seldom take a bad swing and also load up them with power. They did not get fooled much at all. Walks is a killer for every team. They do not have a slapping lineup and spray the ball around the park pretty well. Their team was experienced and it looked like it as well. Defense is a adequate and speed ok. Seem to be well coached as well.

The LVs are a young team as we all know . Our top 2 pitchers are a little above average now and I think will turn in to very good ones. Our depth there as in the last several years is nil. Our team speed is great and defense is above average for the most part. Our offense at this time is average at best at this time and we have to depend on Gregg and need Geer to help her a little more. Without Geer hitting teams will pitch around Gregg as they did today. Our other right hand hitters have been at best poor and seem to not know how to hit the ball. Our catcher position is weak from a fundamental standpoing and their offense is as I sad poor. The player at first base seems to have to be Vines because she does hit. Rowland I though would be ready this year and may be but struggling. Seagram is a major improvement at third from last year at 3rd. Seagram has seemed to be lost at the plate today and was swinging for the fences on all 3 strike outs. Outfield speed and defense above average. One think I have noticed all year on the games I have watched which are most that McSwain NEVER gives the pitcher whom ever it is a target. The glove wiggles ever where and as the pitch comes in she puts the glove on the ground to push herself up. I know that that is not her natural position but you would think they have told her to set up a target.
I will take any and all wins and my observation is just mine and it is not any disrespect to anyone.

Finally one other point I would like to make. I have heard Karen say that Aubrey Leach is the best base runner they have ever coached. As we seen today she got us a run by her heads up running. If you guys will notice if you have not, when Aubrey is in the dugout she is right behind Karen every minute learning more about softball and getting wisdom from her. She will make a great coach on day if that is her career aspirations.
JMHO!!!
Click to expand...

Good observations.
 
#332
#332
larjoranj said:
I'm probably handicapped in that I really just pay attention to UT on a game by game basis. I watch the SEC and national marquee games but don't really follow the year to year improvement of other team's pitchers. It may very well be that most pitchers advance at about the same rate as ours have.
Click to expand...

Moss has improved from last year
 
#333
#333
vol-un-tear said:
Moss has improved from last year
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Maybe. Maybe not. She's given up more HR already in 40 less innings but that could be a fluke. Her ERA is lower now but the tough part of the SEC schedule remains. She pitched better last year in conference games than she pitched this weekend and we will face several tougher teams. Let's wait til the season is over
 
#334
#334
larjoranj said:
Maybe. Maybe not. She's given up more HR already in 40 less innings but that could be a fluke. Her ERA is lower now but the tough part of the SEC schedule remains. She pitched better last year in conference games than she pitched this weekend and we will face several tougher teams. Let's wait til the season is over
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And she's pitching more than last year. She's #1 now not 2 or 3.
 
#337
#337
LVJeff said:
SC not cheering so much now.

Seriously, TN's freshman have to learn to compete at this level. SC is a solid team. They will win around 40 games and go to an NCAA regional. But SC is not Florida, Auburn, Alabama, LSU, as was noted earlier by Alex. This TN team has to get better.
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Freshmen have to learn to compete at this level? Did you already forget that they beat the defending national champs earlier this year? When they beat Auburn this week ...you'll change your tune.
 
#338
#338
SouthKnoxVOL said:
Freshmen have to learn to compete at this level? Did you already forget that they beat the defending national champs earlier this year? When they beat Auburn this week ...you'll change your tune.
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What does one thing have to do with the other? Beating a good team does not mean the freshmen know all there is to know about competing against high level talent. Our freshmen hitters had 2 hits in the SC series. Our freshman pitcher had an ERA of 8.4
 
#339
#339
sccshortstop said:
I just got through a few minutes ago watching the game. My thoughts is that SC is better than most think even though I think their pitchers are average. More experienced than our but still average. Their right handed hitter and there are several, are big and seldom take a bad swing and also load up them with power. They did not get fooled much at all. Walks is a killer for every team. They do not have a slapping lineup and spray the ball around the park pretty well. Their team was experienced and it looked like it as well. Defense is a adequate and speed ok. Seem to be well coached as well.

The LVs are a young team as we all know . Our top 2 pitchers are a little above average now and I think will turn in to very good ones. Our depth there as in the last several years is nil. Our team speed is great and defense is above average for the most part. Our offense at this time is average at best at this time and we have to depend on Gregg and need Geer to help her a little more. Without Geer hitting teams will pitch around Gregg as they did today. Our other right hand hitters have been at best poor and seem to not know how to hit the ball. Our catcher position is weak from a fundamental standpoing and their offense is as I sad poor. The player at first base seems to have to be Vines because she does hit. Rowland I though would be ready this year and may be but struggling. Seagram is a major improvement at third from last year at 3rd. Seagram has seemed to be lost at the plate today and was swinging for the fences on all 3 strike outs. Outfield speed and defense above average. One think I have noticed all year on the games I have watched which are most that McSwain NEVER gives the pitcher whom ever it is a target. The glove wiggles ever where and as the pitch comes in she puts the glove on the ground to push herself up. I know that that is not her natural position but you would think they have told her to set up a target.
I will take any and all wins and my observation is just mine and it is not any disrespect to anyone.

Finally one other point I would like to make. I have heard Karen say that Aubrey Leach is the best base runner they have ever coached. As we seen today she got us a run by her heads up running. If you guys will notice if you have not, when Aubrey is in the dugout she is right behind Karen every minute learning more about softball and getting wisdom from her. She will make a great coach on day if that is her career aspirations.
JMHO!!!
Click to expand...

Great observations all the way around. Nice write up. Lots' of talent, I think they will go as far as the pitching takes them. GBO!!
 
#340
#340
SouthKnoxVOL said:
Freshmen have to learn to compete at this level? Did you already forget that they beat the defending national champs earlier this year? When they beat Auburn this week ...you'll change your tune.
Click to expand...

If you have been following the softball threads then you know that I have consistently said this is the most talented Tennessee team since the national champion runner-up team in 2013. But I have also said they are young, and the SEC is such a brutal conference they could finish 8th or lower in the conference. But yes I think they are a very talented and potentially a very good team.

By the way, when they beat the defending national champion earlier this year in Cathedral City, I was in the stands behind home plate watching.
 
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#341
#341
MadWorld said:
Great observations all the way around. Nice write up. Lots' of talent, I think they will go as far as the pitching takes them. GBO!!
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Agree. Although I'd add hitting to that. Pitching and hitting will invariably let your team down here and there, ideally not at the same time.
 
#342
#342
MadWorld said:
Great observations all the way around. Nice write up. Lots' of talent, I think they will go as far as the pitching takes them. GBO!!
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I agree as well. I would add and a hit at the right time. All those years with the greatest pitcher of all time Monica Abbott we could not get a key hit to win it all.
 
#343
#343
sccshortstop said:
I agree as well. I would add and a hit at the right time. All those years with the greatest pitcher of all time Monica Abbott we could not get a key hit to win it all.
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Absolutely, we saw that with several games this weekend in the SEC.
 
#344
#344
LVJeff said:
Somebody told me one time that with female softball players you can tell at a very early age, like 14 or so, whether or not they're going to be any good. The implication being that they really don't improve that much in the next few years. I don't know that I believe that, but I was told that so I offer it up for your consideration.
Click to expand...

Here's my take on recruiting.

Short version - colleges are recruiting earlier and earlier. The biggest change I've seen in last 3-5 years is the emphasis on early recruiting. UT has 5 girls committed right now that are in 9th grade. Most coaches claim they "hate it" with regards to early verballing, but if they don't do it, others will so they are afraid of losing out. It's not as cut throat as football recruiting, or as drama filled.



Long version - Softball recruiting is a very different animal than the most talked about sport - football. In football HS performance matters. In softball, 99% of girls are recruited through their travel ball programs, and then through camps where the player and college coach can interact. Recruiting rules are pretty tight and the camp visit and unofficial visit is huge huge huge. In the summer and fall players participate in what are called showcases. These are tournaments attended by college coaches where they can watch a player in person. HS ball matters almost 0%. In fact, there are some coaches who don't mind if a recruit decides to run track, play tennis or do something else instead of play softball in HS.

The big thing with softball recruiting is the unwritten coaches code with a recruit. Once a recruit verbals to a school, other coaches will generally lay off that recruit. They might check in with their travel ball coach to see if they are still solidly committed to their original choice, but it's not like football where coaches are constantly trying to flip recruits. Top programs will verbal girls as young as 8th grade (rare), some 9th grade (not as rare) and by 10th grade most top recruits are verballed somewhere. A few might still be available in 11th grade, and even fewer in 12th. When I say top programs, I'm generally speaking about 20-25 teams - most of the SEC, PAC12, and the better teams in the Big 10, ACC and Big 12. Teams like Oklahoma, Michigan, FSU. Also, other programs will verbal girls early as well, mid-major types, but usually they'll only be a handful of their signing classes. Where at some of the top programs, early verbals will be a big chunk of their signing class. Out of UTs last few classes, I would be surprised if more than 75% of the signees weren't already verballed by 10th grade (excluding transfers). UT currently has 5 girls from the class of 2020 verballed. Those girls are in 9th grade right now. They have 9 2019s (10th graders). A lot of them have been verballed for at least a year, some more.

The crazy part is that most coaches "claim" to hate the early verbal trend. But, if they take the moral high ground and don't participate and wait until a player is a junior or senior in HS, by the time they are looking for top talent it's already committed. There is some pressure for the NCAA to do something about it, but who knows if it will go anywhere. Some people think that when top programs start whiffing on 13 and 14 year olds they will wise up. Others think it will only get worse. Ask 15 college coaches and travel ball head and you will get 15 different opinions.

How long have we heard about Ally Shipman coming to UT? Seems like forever. She's only a junior in HS. So it's a race to get the top young talent verballed. Also, like football, it's a juggling act with offering the right positions at the right time. You can't offer five shortstops a spot in the same class. Also, someone like a Caylon Arnold is rare. Her talent didn't emerge until late in HS. But once it did FSU, Washington, UT and others came pounding on the door. Late bloomers like this can be game changers. It takes special talent to start as a freshman in the SEC and not many of those girls are available past 10th grade.

Girls can sign their senior year of HS, and not a lot flip flop this late in the game to go to a competitor. If a girls verbals in 9th grade, sometimes they'll flip flop a year or two later, but rarely is it late in the game. It's usually low drama. Coaching changes can affect verbals, and I've seen a few players committed to schools that realized the academic standards were too much, so they will change schools for that reason. But it's unlike football where some of the top recruits make it all about them and put on a show with all the different hats, shirts, etc. One minute they are committed to UT, the next UGA, and then they sign with LSU. That doesn't happen in softball.

The challenge for a college coach when you recruit young talent is to not only recognize the talent at a young age, but make sure that talent keeps working to improve and doesn't think that since they verballed in 9th or 10th grade they can coast the rest of the way. And it is just a verbal, so coaches can pull it if they see some warning signs. It's rare, but it does happen. Also, grades and character are important. And softball is not a full scholarship sport so coaches will offer partials left and right. A lot of the top programs will offer partials to a lot of girls that exceed what they have available knowing there will be attrition. Every now and then a coach gets in a sticky situation where they over commit.

Yes, that was a lot. I actually had a 1/2 hour call with the head coach of a 14u team in a large organization last week about this very subject. He had a player get a verbal offer from an SEC school and is working with that SEC coach on a plan to make sure the girl keeps working hard and improving. She's a 2020. She's the 5th player to commit on that team. It's getting crazy!!!:crazy:
 
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#345
#345
Volfan2012 said:
Have to win series at home road will be tough in this league. \
Very impressed with Sc there batters are hard outs they foul and make the pitcher work.
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That's because those fouling off all those pitches have a very level swing plane, whereas many of our hitters have an upward swing plane... which would be okay in baseball when the ball is being thrown from above the shoulder on a raised mound, but in softball the ball is released low to high.

Which means... with a level swing plane you're likely to make contact with the ball (even if you swing early or late). But with an upward plane you have a much smaller contact zone. I think this is also one of the reasons we struggled last year against rise ball pitchers. jmo
 
#346
#346
If what I saw this weekend passes for Vols pitching, it's gonna be a long season. I like Moss's fire, but she's a long way from what we've had in the past. The upcoming game with Auburn will be a good indicator. This Arkansas team ain't your daddy's Hog team. I'm thinking the Vols will be lucky to win two of the three.
 
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#347
#347
IBlvNTmWrk said:
That's because those fouling off all those pitches have a very level swing plane, whereas many of our hitters have an upward swing plane... which would be okay in baseball when the ball is being thrown from above the shoulder on a raised mound, but in softball the ball is released low to high.

Which means... with a level swing plane you're likely to make contact with the ball (even if you swing early or late). But with an upward plane you have a much smaller contact zone. I think this is also one of the reasons we struggled last year against rise ball pitchers. jmo
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It was a little annoying to watch them this weekend swing under the ball constantly. And also a lot of slappers constantly fouling the ball down 3rd or hitting directly to 3rd. And not slapping down hard to bounce the ball over 3rd, just kinda guiding it there for an easy play. Just having a bad angle of bat to ball. At what point do you realize you are doing the same thing over and over and make an adjustment
 
#348
#348
tnburban said:
Here's my take on recruiting.

Short version - colleges are recruiting earlier and earlier.
Click to expand...

Softball should have it's own board, and this should be a sticky post. Everything you said is a fact, and it's a reason why some of these girls don't pan out. More and more of these 'late bloomers" are becoming dominant like Kelsey Nunley at KY and Megan Good at James Madison. They can turn programs on their heels and make them Top 10 programs over night.
 
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#349
#349
arkyvol said:
If what I saw this weekend passes for Vols pitching, it's gonna be a long season. I like Moss's fire, but she's a long way from what we've had in the past. The upcoming game with Auburn will be a good indicator. This Arkansas team ain't your daddy's Hog team. I'm thinking the Vols will be lucky to win two of the three.
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I was at the Arkansas/Bama series this weekend....the hogs are improved but their pitching and defense are not great...you can pitch around their best hitter
 
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#350
#350
larjoranj said:
It was a little annoying to watch them this weekend swing under the ball constantly. And also a lot of slappers constantly fouling the ball down 3rd or hitting directly to 3rd. And not slapping down hard to bounce the ball over 3rd, just kinda guiding it there for an easy play. Just having a bad angle of bat to ball. At what point do you realize you are doing the same thing over and over and make an adjustment
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Many batters don't, but that's what coaches are for. I don't know if they film the batters or not (during games or practice) but it should be an easy thing to point out. You can also usually tell by the spin on the ball and the ball flight. Hitting slightly under a pitch with an upward swing will often result in an easy pop up. But doing the same with a level swing creates a driving ball because of the backspin.

The other issue I've seen, as you and I think someone else already pointed out, is bad discipline at the plate. Swinging at a questionable pitch, when you have 0 or 1 strike, is a bad habit and typically leads to easy outs.
 
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