Gun control debate (merged)

[luthervol]

I.

.

 

[luthervol]

So we further restrict firearms nationwide here and the criminals just import them from Mexico?

That would be a step in the right direction.

 

[luthervol]

Why don’t the states they’re buying the guns from have higher rates given they have easier access?

Because they have differing economic and social conditions.

 

[Vol8188]

I'm not sure if you are unable or unwilling to understand.

Homicide rates will always....in every country......in every state.......in every city.....be highest among those who are economically and socially disadvantaged.
I am not concerned with any racial aspect you try to assign to homicide rates.
What a more thoughtful person would easily conclude is that there is a racial aspect to economic and social conditions.
But take the simplistic approach.....it's certainly easier for many.

Yet when we skew for poverty and compare US states that have demographics similar to these countries you pick, we find that even though these states have higher poverty rates (New Hampshire vs Canada for example), looser gun laws, more guns per capita, and even higher population density than Canada; and yet they have almost the exact same homicide rate.

Given your assumption that less guns would mean less homicides, how do you explain this?

You've yet to give me any examples that support your claims.

 

[EricStratton]

That's just absurd. Daily gun violence is a huge issue, much larger than the mass shootings. That's why the rational and reasonable gun regulations I support are geared more to addressing those specific issues.

You do understand the Tops market shooting happened because it was identified as a victim disarmament zone, right? A target rich environment due to the liberal anti gun agenda of New York State. Hell, in the pictures you can see he used the factory magazine.

 

[Vol8188]

Because they have differing economic and social conditions.

Yes, the states they buy the guns from have much higher poverty rates. So why don't they have the same problem with homicide?

 

[McDad]

Your go to tactic seems to be to cherry pick who you accuse of cherry picking.
Spread your criticisms a little more evenly and they may gain a little significance.
Every person in the PF selects data that supports their position.

I save my incrimination for those who claim to walk the rational and reasonable high road while providing cherries picked from the low road.

 

[Vol8188]

Continue....what do you mean? Why would the impact not be as soon as the guns are removed?

@luthervol Want to make sure this one isn't missed. Tell me more about why there is very little short term impact and even an increase in homicide years after a gun ban, and why it took 6 years to see any real effects?

 

[hog88]

Because they have differing economic and social conditions.

You’re delusional

 

[luthervol]

Yet when we skew for poverty and compare US states that have demographics similar to these countries you pick, we find that even though these states have higher poverty rates (New Hampshire vs Canada for example), looser gun laws, more guns per capita, and even higher population density than Canada; and yet they have almost the exact same homicide rate.

Given your assumption that less guns would mean less homicides, how do you explain this?

You've yet to give me any examples that support your claims.

lol......I'm not sure anything can be gained by comparing New Hampshire to Canada.
Toronto alone has twice the population of New Hampshire.

 

[luthervol]

You do understand the Tops market shooting happened because it was identified as a victim disarmament zone, right? A target rich environment due to the liberal anti gun agenda of New York State. Hell, in the pictures you can see he used the factory magazine.

A target rich environment???? Do you even hear yourself?

 

[Vol8188]

lol......I'm not sure anything can be gained by comparing New Hampshire to Canada.
Toronto alone has twice the population of New Hampshire.

New Hampshire has greater population density, more guns, and more poverty. I thought those were the factors that mattered, not overall population?

Otherwise you wouldn't be comparing all of the US to small European countries and/or Canada right?

 

[McDad]

I linked another study.

That study showed between 1979 to 2013 Deaths (homicide and suicide) increased even though deaths from firearms decreased.
I believe many here (including me) agree that armed individuals are at less risk of death from homicide when they can protect themselves. Your link seems to support that finding as well.

 

[luthervol]

Yes, the states they buy the guns from have much higher poverty rates. So why don't they have the same problem with homicide?

Which states are you talking about?

 

[McDad]

lol......I'm not sure anything can be gained by comparing New Hampshire to Canada.
Toronto alone has twice the population of New Hampshire.

How about Alberta to US states in geographical proximity and similar populations?

 

[Vol8188]

Which states are you talking about?

Illinois vs Indiana for example. The poverty rate in Indiana is higher and yet the homicide rate is lower.

 

[luthervol]

That study showed between 1979 to 2013 Deaths (homicide and suicide) increased even though deaths from firearms decreased.
I believe many here (including me) agree that armed individuals are at less risk of death from homicide when they can protect themselves. Your link seems to support that finding as well.

?
This is the opening paragraph....
Summary: Australia’s 1996 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) banned several types of firearms and resulted in the government buying hundreds of thousands of the banned weapons from their owners. Studies examining the effect of removing so many weapons from the community have found that homicides, suicides, and mass shootings were less common after the NFA was implemented, although such incidents were declining prior to 1996. The strongest evidence is consistent with the claim that the NFA caused reductions in firearm suicides, mass shootings, and female homicide victimization.

 

[Vol8188]

?
This is the opening paragraph....
Summary: Australia’s 1996 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) banned several types of firearms and resulted in the government buying hundreds of thousands of the banned weapons from their owners. Studies examining the effect of removing so many weapons from the community have found that homicides, suicides, and mass shootings were less common after the NFA was implemented, although such incidents were declining prior to 1996. The strongest evidence is consistent with the claim that the NFA caused reductions in firearm suicides, mass shootings, and female homicide victimization.

You don't find it odd that overall homicide was not down? Isn't that the goal of gun control?

If you are right about your own claims, shouldn't they have stated "The strongest evidence is consistent with the claim that the NFA caused reductions in overall homicide rates?

 

[luthervol]

New Hampshire has greater population density, more guns, and more poverty. I thought those were the factors that mattered, not overall population?

Otherwise you wouldn't be comparing all of the US to small European countries and/or Canada right?

What I saw was a poverty level of 7% in New Hampshire and a poverty level of 11% in Canada.
But even if they were the same, I would not view it as a fair comparison.

 

[Vol8188]

What I saw was a poverty level of 7% in New Hampshire and a poverty level of 11% in Canada.
But even if they were the same, I would not view it as a fair comparison.

I think you're using some old data

 

[luthervol]

That’s easy. Most guns in the world. Below average homicide rate. Low suicide rates.

Where exactly is the problem?

This is where it started..........,
There are 125 countries with lower homicide rates...
Kenya, Niger, Angola, China, Italy, Canada, India, Spain, UK, Poland Indonesia etc...etc...etc....

We have a homicide rate that is multiple times higher than most of those 125 countries.
We in no way have a below average homicide rate.

 

[Vol8188]

This is where it started..........,
There are 125 countries with lower homicide rates...
Kenya, Niger, Angola, China, Italy, Canada, India, Spain, UK, Poland Indonesia etc...etc...etc....

We have a homicide rate that is multiple times higher than most of those 125 countries.
We in no way have a below average homicide rate.

Yes, and that's almost entirely contained to states with large black populations. We've been through this. Why when we compare countries to states with similar demographics do we get similar outcomes if the problem is guns?

You've yet to address that. It's a serious problem for your argument.

 

[C-south]

?
This is the opening paragraph....
Summary: Australia’s 1996 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) banned several types of firearms and resulted in the government buying hundreds of thousands of the banned weapons from their owners. Studies examining the effect of removing so many weapons from the community have found that homicides, suicides, and mass shootings were less common after the NFA was implemented, although such incidents were declining prior to 1996. The strongest evidence is consistent with the claim that the NFA caused reductions in firearm suicides, mass shootings, and female homicide victimization.

What are there demographics?

 

[McDad]

?
This is the opening paragraph....
Summary: Australia’s 1996 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) banned several types of firearms and resulted in the government buying hundreds of thousands of the banned weapons from their owners. Studies examining the effect of removing so many weapons from the community have found that homicides, suicides, and mass shootings were less common after the NFA was implemented, although such incidents were declining prior to 1996. The strongest evidence is consistent with the claim that the NFA caused reductions in firearm suicides, mass shootings, and female homicide victimization.

Correct. The graphical data embedded in your link is asserting the totality of deaths and then showing the subset of firearm deaths which is the theme of the opening paragraph. Totals have actually increased slightly. You might want to read the whole piece rather than the opening.

 

[McDad]

Yes, and that's almost entirely contained to states with large black populations. We've been through this. Why when we compare countries to states with similar demographics do we get similar outcomes if the problem is guns?

You've yet to address that. It's a serious problem for your argument.

Let's agree, just for the purposes of advancing the conversation, irrefutable evidence proving the firearm homicide issue is grossly inflated in poor, black areas of America.

Would those like Luther who propose further restricting gun access as a strategy to reduce death be in favor or opposed to more limitations and restrictions in those communities where the issue is most problematic?