Gun control debate (merged)

[luthervol]

If more restrictive gun legislation makes law abiding citizens safer why are they being killed in mass shooting events more now than when access to guns was easier?

Without the more restrictive gun legislation, mass shootings would be even more common today than they are.

The obvious reason is because mass shootings are more popular today than they were in the past.
Why are they more popular? There are numerous reasons.

 

[hog88]

Without the more restrictive gun legislation, mass shootings would be even more common today than they are.

The obvious reason is because mass shootings are more popular today than they were in the past.
Why are they more popular? There are numerous reasons.

Why? They weren't when guns were easier to get?
Why are mass shootings more popular today(that's an idiotic statement BTW)?
Say it's true and mass shootings are "popular". Shouldn't we be focusing on why that is instead of more restrictions on law abiding citizens?

 

[Majors]

Without the more restrictive gun legislation, mass shootings would be even more common today than they are.

The obvious reason is because mass shootings are more popular today than they were in the past.
Why are they more popular? There are numerous reasons.

Mass shootings create opportunities for politicians to push agendas, but daily shootings in democrat ran cities don't move the needle of support because that would look bad on the elected leaders.

 

[luthervol]

Why? They weren't when guns were easier to get?
Why are mass shootings more popular today(that's an idiotic statement BTW)?
Say it's true and mass shootings are "popular". Shouldn't we be focusing on why that is instead of more restrictions on law abiding citizens?

Of course we should be focusing on ALL of the reasons why that is and also on the weapons of choice.

Many of the reasons of "why that is" cannot be addressed without some limitations and/or inconveniences to individual freedoms and rights.

 

[hog88]

Of course we should be focusing on ALL of the reasons why that is and also on the weapons of choice.

Many of the reasons of "why that is" cannot be addressed without some limitations and/or inconveniences to individual freedoms and rights.

That is patently false. You have absolutely no data to back this up.

 

[luthervol]

That is patently false. You have absolutely no data to back this up.

It is 100% true but it runs completely counter to the very foundation of your belief system; so you have to either reject the truth or change your belief system.

We can take this approach if you wish.
Name 2 or 3 of the top reasons you believe mass shootings are more common today.

 

[hog88]

It is 100% true but it runs completely counter to the very foundation of your belief system; so you have to either reject the truth or change your belief system.

We can take this approach if you wish.
Name 2 or 3 of the top reasons you believe mass shootings are more common today.

The numbers say you are either a liar (most probable) or too dense to understand.

 

[luthervol]

The numbers say you are either a liar (most probable) or too dense to understand.

What are you talking about? I'm not disputing any numbers.
I've said multiple times that mass shootings are more popular now.
I thought we were moving the debate to why that is and what could/should be done about it.

And why are you guys so quick to call me a liar? I have my own theory, but it's not pretty.

 

[hog88]

Just look at the increase in mass shootings since the Brady Bill was enacted in 1994, that is when BGCs started to be required nationwide. Then tell us how more restrictive legislation is going to fix the problem?

Number of mass shootings in the U.S. 1982-2022 | Statista

 

[hog88]

What are you talking about? I'm not disputing any numbers.
I've said multiple times that mass shootings are more popular now.
I thought we were moving the debate to why that is and what could/should be done about it.

And why are you guys so quick to call me a liar? I have my own theory, but it's not pretty.

You are liar, that's why people keep calling you one.

You refuse to discuss any solutions that do not include more restrictions on law abiding citizens.

 

[LouderVol]

It is 100% true but it runs completely counter to the very foundation of your belief system; so you have to either reject the truth or change your belief system.

We can take this approach if you wish.
Name 2 or 3 of the top reasons you believe mass shootings are more common today.

Media coverage. Both as purely popularizing it, as well as making us more aware of them. Gun violence is down, look at FBI stats over time, awareness of gun crime is up. We know several shooters have gone that direction just to get attention. It would be better for the media to drop the coverage on the shooter themself. The people with messed up minds see the attention and want a piece of it.

Lack of understanding of guns. People werent taught how to properly respect/handle weapons, so the disconnect has made using them violently against people more likely. When you are taught how to use guns, safety, both you and for others, is hammered into your head. We removed "drivers ed" from the circulum and get shocked when the related safety measures fall apart. This also goes to safely storing/maintaining weapons as well. It's a learn as you go culture now, instead of being prepped. Now instead of commonly seeing guns handled properly most of society only sees guns being used in games or movies against people.

Kinda relating to the above but the impression of what a gun is. For the longest time it was seen as just an everyday tool. Now the media, movies, music, games, etc show them only as weapons to be used against other people. That change in perspective and the narrative around them cant be a positive. Just look at this board and your interactions here. You, relatively anti gun, see it as a weapon. The people who are around guns everyday see it as a tool. Which is why the hammer comparison keeps coming up.

Culture in general. We dont fix problems, we ignore them. Until they blow up in our face. We wont even take action to head it off. The slighest inconvenience isnt allowed, it's a wrong worse than taking away a Right. We feed off of crisis as a society. So instead of addressing items that lead up to violent actions, that might inconvenience all of society, we want to take guns away. Ignoring the problem.

 

[luthervol]

You are liar, that's why people keep calling you one.

You refuse to discuss any solutions that do not include more restrictions on law abiding citizens.

That almost makes me want to end the discussion. Maybe that's your intent.

I asked you to name 2 or 3 reasons as to why mass shootings are more common today. I was willing to discuss the reasons of your choosing.
Instead of answering you call me a liar and then double down.
Later

 

[utvolpj]

That almost makes me want to end the discussion. Maybe that's your intent.

I asked you to name 2 or 3 reasons as to why mass shootings are more common today. I was willing to discuss the reasons of your choosing.
Instead of answering you call me a liar and then double down.
Later

Over prescribed antipsychotic drugs. It's a very common but disturbing trend

 

[C-south]

What are you talking about? I'm not disputing any numbers.
I've said multiple times that mass shootings are more popular now.
I thought we were moving the debate to why that is and what could/should be done about it.

And why are you guys so quick to call me a liar? I have my own theory, but it's not pretty.

How does placing more restrictions on lawful gun owners make them less popular or any less common? It’s fun watching you make a fool of yourself. You’re just talking out the side of your skinny neck.

 

[hog88]

That almost makes me want to end the discussion. Maybe that's your intent.

I asked you to name 2 or 3 reasons as to why mass shootings are more common today. I was willing to discuss the reasons of your choosing.
Instead of answering you call me a liar and then double down.
Later

I have named them many times in these discussions but for you I will again.

1. Over prescription of ADHD/antidepressant type drugs. Mainly done to excuse bad parenting, bad behavior and an unwillingness to discipline children.
2. Over protection of children. Too many parents refuse to allow their children to experience failure and disappointment then when they get into their late teens/early 20s and life kicks them in the nuts they do not know how to deal with it.
3. Allowing children to be babysat by the TV and video games, parents not spending time with their kids because they don't want to be bothered, inconvenienced or career impacted by their spawn. Goes back to #1 because a drugged kid is easier to deal with than one with pent up energy.
4. Social media influence (goes along with #3) kids spend more time seeking likes online than developing personal interaction skills. When they don't get them or get criticized they can't deal with the disappointment (see #2).

 

[luthervol]

Media coverage. Both as purely popularizing it, as well as making us more aware of them. Gun violence is down, look at FBI stats over time, awareness of gun crime is up. We know several shooters have gone that direction just to get attention. It would be better for the media to drop the coverage on the shooter themself. The people with messed up minds see the attention and want a piece of it.

Lack of understanding of guns. People werent taught how to properly respect/handle weapons, so the disconnect has made using them violently against people more likely. When you are taught how to use guns, safety, both you and for others, is hammered into your head. We removed "drivers ed" from the circulum and get shocked when the related safety measures fall apart. This also goes to safely storing/maintaining weapons as well. It's a learn as you go culture now, instead of being prepped. Now instead of commonly seeing guns handled properly most of society only sees guns being used in games or movies against people.

Kinda relating to the above but the impression of what a gun is. For the longest time it was seen as just an everyday tool. Now the media, movies, music, games, etc show them only as weapons to be used against other people. That change in perspective and the narrative around them cant be a positive. Just look at this board and your interactions here. You, relatively anti gun, see it as a weapon. The people who are around guns everyday see it as a tool. Which is why the hammer comparison keeps coming up.

Culture in general. We dont fix problems, we ignore them. Until they blow up in our face. We wont even take action to head it off. The slighest inconvenience isnt allowed, it's a wrong worse than taking away a Right. We feed off of crisis as a society. So instead of addressing items that lead up to violent actions, that might inconvenience all of society, we want to take guns away. Ignoring the problem.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Now addressing those issues is where it gets complicated.
I will add that I do not believe the makers of the AR-15 type weapons design and market them as tools. They are financially vested in them being viewed and purchased as weapons.

I think most gun-control people are more than happy with guns being purchased and kept as tools.
It's the weaponization of guns that's the issue.

 

[hog88]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Now addressing those issues is where it gets complicated.
I will add that I do not believe the makers of the AR-15 type weapons design and market them as tools. They are financially vested in them being viewed and purchased as weapons.

I think most gun-control people are more than happy with guns being purchased and kept as tools.
It's the weaponization of guns that's the issue.

Every gun is a weapon. WTF?

 

[luthervol]

I have named them many times in these discussions but for you I will again.

1. Over prescription of ADHD/antidepressant type drugs. Mainly done to excuse bad parenting, bad behavior and an unwillingness to discipline children.
2. Over protection of children. Too many parents refuse to allow their children to experience failure and disappointment then when they get into their late teens/early 20s and life kicks them in the nuts they do not know how to deal with it.
3. Allowing children to be babysat by the TV and video games, parents not spending time with their kids because they don't want to be bothered, inconvenienced or career impacted by their spawn. Goes back to #1 because a drugged kid is easier to deal with than one with pent up energy.
4. Social media influence (goes along with #3) kids spend more time seeking likes online than developing personal interaction skills. When they don't get them or get criticized they can't deal with the disappointment (see #2).

I'm in complete agreement with all 4 points.

 

[luthervol]

Every gun is a weapon. WTF?

I was responding to this paragraph from louder's post.

"Kinda relating to the above but the impression of what a gun is. For the longest time it was seen as just an everyday tool. Now the media, movies, music, games, etc show them only as weapons to be used against other people. That change in perspective and the narrative around them cant be a positive. Just look at this board and your interactions here. You, relatively anti gun, see it as a weapon. The people who are around guns everyday see it as a tool. Which is why the hammer comparison keeps coming up."

 

[hog88]

I'm in complete agreement with all 4 points.

Then you should be advocating for fixes instead of restrictions.

 

[luthervol]

Then you should be advocating for fixes instead of restrictions.

I'm quite certain I work harder to address those 4 issues than do you.

 

[C-south]

I was responding to this paragraph from louder's post.

"Kinda relating to the above but the impression of what a gun is. For the longest time it was seen as just an everyday tool. Now the media, movies, music, games, etc show them only as weapons to be used against other people. That change in perspective and the narrative around them cant be a positive. Just look at this board and your interactions here. You, relatively anti gun, see it as a weapon. The people who are around guns everyday see it as a tool. Which is why the hammer comparison keeps coming up."

With tens of millions of “ARs” in circulation your assessment is simply dumb.

 

[hog88]

I'm quite certain I work harder to address those 4 issues than do you.

I should hope you do, concentrate your efforts there and leave the law abiding alone.

 

[LouderVol]

I was responding to this paragraph from louder's post.

"Kinda relating to the above but the impression of what a gun is. For the longest time it was seen as just an everyday tool. Now the media, movies, music, games, etc show them only as weapons to be used against other people. That change in perspective and the narrative around them cant be a positive. Just look at this board and your interactions here. You, relatively anti gun, see it as a weapon. The people who are around guns everyday see it as a tool. Which is why the hammer comparison keeps coming up."

All of my points were related. Anything is a weapon if you put it in the hands of someone with intent or lack of knowledge. We have too much of both.

The weapon/tool hasnt fundamentally changed. The AR series of platforms, beyond your scary AR-15 didnt make any real revolutionary changes from what was otherwise available. Maybe the failure button, forward assists for the AR bois out there, but I am honestly not versed enough to know for sure. Large capacity mags were a thing. Semi auto was a thing. "Military style" was a thing, and you could find them all in one package. Maybe the use of 5.56 which would be specifc to the 15. But i would think there were other manufacturers with their own pre-AR-15 models of rifles with 5.56. So again nothing really changed with the guns.

Gun access has only gone down, with ownership dropping too, until recently. But with the amount of times i get flagged at the range now i am not so sure that's an improvement. But that goes back to my point of people not being raised on how to use a gun.

Taking away guns, limiting access or sales, should be the absolute last resort. Not the first, and only, card that gets played. If you want to convince pro 2A people that there is no other choice, you need to show your other body of work that has otherwise failed, go over all the options, and how you ended up at restricting or limiting the 2A. You may not see it as such, but to the people who are pro 2A you are.

 

[hndog609]

With tens of millions of “ARs” in circulation your assessment is simply dumb.

This is one of the new myths. The AR is THE most popular rifle platform in this country and has been for some time now for pretty much every purpose a rifle can be used. It's not one jot more than a more modern* take on those rifle types that became ubiquitous when they came out before.

*By "modern" I mean been on sale to the public for going on 60 years now.