Guarantano learning what Osovet specializes in

#51
#51
I may end up showing some ignorance here but hasn't Chaney made his living utilizing the split zone? Just a reminder for myself and those who are not familiar the split zone simply means that the offensive line is moving as a unit in the same direction to make their blocks. Here is a decent example from Chaney's time at UGA:

Play_1.gif


Chaney likes to lull you to sleep with some of these and then when he gets the middle linebackers to play the run action, anticipating the Split-Zone play, and their outside linebacker commits to the QB he hits the flats like so:

Play_4.gif


So I suppose this is where the RPO type quick passes really come in handy. This really does require JG to take in a lot of information in a very short amount of time and make a decision. I do think he will have more time than last year based on a (hopefully) improved offensive line and the fact the split zone really will have JG running away from pressure. You can fill a library with what I don't know about college football play calling these days but I can see this working as long at the offensive line can do their thing.


For some reason the gifs above are not coming through so here is the source article where I got them: Tennessee Football: Getting To Know Jim Chaney’s Offense
 
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#52
#52
I'm truly baffled by the hate for JG. Go back and watch the games with a stopwatch or timer on your phone. Count how many times he was under pressure within 2 sec. You can't make your progressions under duress that is causing you to move in the pocket. It's either first/second option is open and you get it out quick or take the hit/run for your life. It's just terrible blocking technique or blown assignments (probably both). Also note how many times out RBs were met in the backfield per game.

Bottom line is we need better O-line play before we start blaming anyone else. We will be improved this year and a zone blocking technique will help under sized O-lineman if that is the way chaney goes.
 
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#53
#53
GoVols64 said:
I'm truly baffled by the hate for JG.
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I am truly baffled that objective criticism is called "hate".

Go back and watch the games with a stopwatch or timer on your phone. Count how many times he was under pressure within 2 sec. You can't make your progressions under duress that is causing you to move in the pocket. It's either first/second option is open and you get it out quick or take the hit/run for your life. It's just terrible blocking technique or blown assignments (probably both). Also note how many times out RBs were met in the backfield per game.
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Go back. Take those plays out (even the ones where the pressure came because of the line calls or poor pocket management or poor pre-snap reads.... and see how many times he is still WAY too late throwing the ball.

Bottom line is we need better O-line play before we start blaming anyone else.
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Why? The OL does some things poorly. No one disputes that. But the issues many of us have pointed to with JG DIRECTLY impact how the OL plays. He has now suggested that he was not allowed to make line calls... or at least all of them. Other QB's including Dormady and Dobbs under Jones WERE allowed to make line calls. Correct line calls make a difference for OL's. Making hot reads effectively helps the OL. Throwing to the middle of the field will help the OL immensely. Even what on the surface looks like pure OL failures... sometimes involves things the QB is typically responsible for. Chaney will put the full weight of that responsibility on JG. JG will either step up... or it will be ugly. It doesn't appear that Chaney is going to protect him from mistakes like Jones did.

We will be improved this year and a zone blocking technique will help under sized O-lineman if that is the way chaney goes.
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The OL's have gotten bigger according to reports. Zone blocking won't help if the LB's don't have to worry about the QB dumping mid-range throws behind them.

Actually Jones' whole idea was small, quick OL's using primarily zone blocking... it failed... badly.
 
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#54
#54
sjt18 said:
I am truly baffled that objective criticism is called "hate".

Go back. Take those plays out (even the ones where the pressure came because of the line calls or poor pocket management or poor pre-snap reads.... and see how many times he is still WAY too late throwing the ball.

Why? The OL does some things poorly. No one disputes that. But the issues many of us have pointed to with JG DIRECTLY impact how the OL plays. He has now suggested that he was not allowed to make line calls... or at least all of them. Other QB's including Dormady and Dobbs under Jones WERE allowed to make line calls. Correct line calls make a difference for OL's. Making hot reads effectively helps the OL. Throwing to the middle of the field will help the OL immensely. Even what on the surface looks like pure OL failures... sometimes involves things the QB is typically responsible for. Chaney will put the full weight of that responsibility on JG. JG will either step up... or it will be ugly. It doesn't appear that Chaney is going to protect him from mistakes like Jones did.


The OL's have gotten bigger according to reports. Zone blocking won't help if the LB's don't have to worry about the QB dumping mid-range throws behind them.

Actually Jones' whole idea was small, quick OL's using primarily zone blocking... it failed... badly.
Click to expand...

No one is saying JG is perfect here but there is a difference between criticism and people putting it all on him. I agree JG held the ball too long at times but I am sure one of his directives from coaches was DO NOT turn the ball over. That coupled with getting crushed every other play doesn't result in good QB play.

OL didn't do much well last year, let's not sugarcoat it. They had some bright spots but overall they were grading out poorly save the UK game. Even against B tier opponents they didn't assert themselves and if there is one constant in Football it all starts up front with the lines. It is hard to throw over the middle when your center or guards are being bull rushed into your space. I am not making a surface analysis here again, JG DOES carry some of the fault, but free rushers, center of pocket collapses and lack of confidence prevent the mid level throws you are talking about.

CBJ had a scheme problem. There is a massive difference between a pro-style zone scheme and whatever RPO crap Jones had. His style worked in the minors because one player (like Josh Dobbs) can directly impact the defense. Once you see a team with speed all over the field the system struggles. Even Oregon has a tough time with a true SEC caliber defense despite putting up 50+ against Pac-10 schools. He didn't adjust his recruiting and now we have an undersized and young O-line. Trey was the only recruit that worked out and unfortunately his health has been his biggest challenge (wishing him all the best btw).
 
#55
#55
I also think it is important to let the kid evolve too. He took a beating and made some bad decisions. I expect a much more mature and composed player each year with experience.
 
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#58
#58
GoVols64 said:
No one is saying JG is perfect here but there is a difference between criticism and people putting it all on him. I agree JG held the ball too long at times but I am sure one of his directives from coaches was DO NOT turn the ball over. That coupled with getting crushed every other play doesn't result in good QB play.
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And... this is what I personally have a problem with. Exaggeration that throws the OL under the bus. He did not get "crushed every other play". In the abstract, you say he isn't perfect. In the concrete... you deflect legitimate criticism to "all on the" OL or coaches.

He didn't make good pre-snap reads. One way you can tell is the number of times he delivered the ball immediately after planting his back foot on his drop... it was seldom. Jones' QB's before him were tasked with making line calls. Two consecutive OC's apparently didn't trust him to do it (JG is the one who said he was now being allowed). He either could not or was not allowed to use the middle of the field or throw timing passes like slants, quick outs, et al or passes that require the QB to see coverage and throw to an open spot like drags, curls, skinny posts sometimes, seams, etc.

These aren't small issues... and they directly impact the OL by putting more pressure on them.

OL didn't do much well last year, let's not sugarcoat it. They had some bright spots but overall they were grading out poorly save the UK game. Even against B tier opponents they didn't assert themselves and if there is one constant in Football it all starts up front with the lines. It is hard to throw over the middle when your center or guards are being bull rushed into your space. I am not making a surface analysis here again, JG DOES carry some of the fault, but free rushers, center of pocket collapses and lack of confidence prevent the mid level throws you are talking about.
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Yeah. You're pretty much making a surface analysis and absolving JG of fault. If not... then give specific ways it IS partly his fault.

The OL didn't play well. JG had significant issues too and had a direct impact on the OL. No sugar coating. Both have to improve significantly.

The best comparison is Drew Lock. You couldn't blitz the guy without paying. He "saw" it, read it, and burned it... even when the OL couldn't handle the rush.

CBJ had a scheme problem. There is a massive difference between a pro-style zone scheme and whatever RPO crap Jones had. His style worked in the minors because one player (like Josh Dobbs) can directly impact the defense. Once you see a team with speed all over the field the system struggles. Even Oregon has a tough time with a true SEC caliber defense despite putting up 50+ against Pac-10 schools. He didn't adjust his recruiting and now we have an undersized and young O-line. Trey was the only recruit that worked out and unfortunately his health has been his biggest challenge (wishing him all the best btw).
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Jones ran a modified West Coast scheme. He thought he was going to re-invent football in the SEC with his "brilliant" scheme.

Without Dobbs, he would have lasted no more than 3 years. I believe he's the worst hire UT has made in 40 years... obscured only by Dobbs' "sandlot" ability.
 
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#59
#59
sjt18 said:
I hope he can show what he can do with reads and decision making even close to what a division one SEC quarterback in his 4th season should be able to do. The OL wasn't good. They were very often just physically overmatched. But is wasn't all on them. NO OL can provide the amount of time on a regular basis for a QB to be that weak at pre-snap reads and take as long as JG did to make decisions. It is a DISTINCT advantage to opposing DC's when they know you aren't going to hit hot routes, throw to the middle of the field, or burn them for stunts and blitzes.

Hopefully, this article is dead on and JG has made strides in his SIGNIFICANT weaknesses. If he has... the O will get a lot better even if the OL hasn't. If the OL HAS then the O will get much, much better.
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so u still acting or are you gonna finally get behind JG and support? cause like last yr as soon as something went wrong and the masses got started, you joined in
 
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#61
#61
lexkyvol said:
so u still acting or are you gonna finally get behind JG and support? cause like last yr as soon as something went wrong and the masses got started, you joined in
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I support the UT Vols. I support all of their players but want to see a high level of performance from them... including JG.

When he does good, I'll praise him. His strengths... I'll praise. His shortcomings I will criticize as objectively and impersonally as I can. I have no prejudice or bias of any kind against JG. I would love for him to be the QB his physical talent indicates he can be.

Every player makes mistakes and has weaknesses. The one's I've focused on are the ones that I thought were both costly and that didn't really seem to show improvement commensurate with the amount of time he's had to work on them. My concern isn't as much where he is as that he may just not have the talent to do the non-physical parts of the position. The distribution of non-physical talent like instinct, "vision/imagination", anticipation, timing, etc is similar to the distribution of the ability to throw a football. Some guys simply can't do some things. I hope that's not him.
 
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#62
#62
sjt18 said:
And... this is what I personally have a problem with. Exaggeration that throws the OL under the bus. He did not get "crushed every other play". In the abstract, you say he isn't perfect. In the concrete... you deflect legitimate criticism to "all on the" OL or coaches.

He didn't make good pre-snap reads. One way you can tell is the number of times he delivered the ball immediately after planting his back foot on his drop... it was seldom. Jones' QB's before him were tasked with making line calls. Two consecutive OC's apparently didn't trust him to do it (JG is the one who said he was now being allowed). He either could not or was not allowed to use the middle of the field or throw timing passes like slants, quick outs, et al or passes that require the QB to see coverage and throw to an open spot like drags, curls, skinny posts sometimes, seams, etc.

These aren't small issues... and they directly impact the OL by putting more pressure on them.

Yeah. You're pretty much making a surface analysis and absolving JG of fault. If not... then give specific ways it IS partly his fault.

The OL didn't play well. JG had significant issues too and had a direct impact on the OL. No sugar coating. Both have to improve significantly.

The best comparison is Drew Lock. You couldn't blitz the guy without paying. He "saw" it, read it, and burned it... even when the OL couldn't handle the rush.


Jones ran a modified West Coast scheme. He thought he was going to re-invent football in the SEC with his "brilliant" scheme.

Without Dobbs, he would have lasted no more than 3 years. I believe he's the worst hire UT has made in 40 years... obscured only by Dobbs' "sandlot" ability.
Click to expand...

I am doing anything but absolving him but read it whatever way you want to. I didn't realize you played on the O-Line last year; sorry, meant no disrespect. Let's just agree to say there are significant issues at both positions.
 
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#63
#63
GoVols64 said:
I am doing anything but absolving him but read it whatever way you want to. I didn't realize you played on the O-Line last year; sorry, meant no disrespect. Let's just agree to say there are significant issues at both positions.
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Didn't play on the OL. Sorry you can't see yourself. Glad you admit there are significant issues at both positions even though you have yet to admit anything specific about JG.

I'll go first. The OL was undersized and had trouble with technique. Their poor technique and lack of size often made them off balance. They had no base and embarrassingly got trucked way too often. Early in the year but improving somewhat over the season they missed assignments so consistently that one or two guys would miss a critical assignment in a single play. By the end of the season, they didn't miss many pass pro assignments from what I could tell. When they got beat, they just go whipped physically. As bad as the OT's were at times, the OG's were probably worse. I never understood the affinity for Jahmir Johnson. He was too small and seemed to miss his assignment about half the time.

IMHO, the only guy on the OL ready to start or play a significant role last year was Ryan Johnson (not counting Smith or Kennedy who were hurt).

The best news is that the S&C program seems to be making a difference... and Chaney has also been an OL coach. He helped pull that OL together in 2009 which was just short of a miracle.
 
#64
#64
sjt18 said:
Didn't play on the OL. Sorry you can't see yourself. Glad you admit there are significant issues at both positions even though you have yet to admit anything specific about JG.

I'll go first. The OL was undersized and had trouble with technique. Their poor technique and lack of size often made them off balance. They had no base and embarrassingly got trucked way too often. Early in the year but improving somewhat over the season they missed assignments so consistently that one or two guys would miss a critical assignment in a single play. By the end of the season, they didn't miss many pass pro assignments from what I could tell. When they got beat, they just go whipped physically. As bad as the OT's were at times, the OG's were probably worse. I never understood the affinity for Jahmir Johnson. He was too small and seemed to miss his assignment about half the time.

IMHO, the only guy on the OL ready to start or play a significant role last year was Ryan Johnson (not counting Smith or Kennedy who were hurt).

The best news is that the S&C program seems to be making a difference... and Chaney has also been an OL coach. He helped pull that OL together in 2009 which was just short of a miracle.
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Serious question. Don't you ever get tired of this? I dont agree with you but I do respect your opinion on JG. Seriously tho... do you not get tired of it? Saying the same stuff over and over in every thread? No disrespect intended.
 
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#65
#65
DustyRockSolid said:
Serious question. Don't you ever get tired of this? I dont agree with you but I do respect your opinion on JG. Seriously tho... do you not get tired of it? Saying the same stuff over and over in every thread? No disrespect intended.
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He's said he loves to debate so probably not.

Guarantano has won me over, same as any player that leaves it all on the field. But the 1 thing that 100% agree with sjt on is that any critique, or mention of an area that he needs to improve, is automatically labeled as "hate".

His rabid fans say "of course he could improve" but as soon as someone picks an area to improve upon, they automatically throw any and everyone around JG under the bus and never admit a single flaw.
That's not a fb player, that's a demi-god 😂

Thankfully message boards don't mean squat and hopefully JG is working to improve in those areas and not buying the deity status placed upon him by several.
Ftr, my guess is that he's much more realistic than those posters and actually admits and works on those areas.
 
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#67
#67
DustyRockSolid said:
Serious question. Don't you ever get tired of this? I dont agree with you but I do respect your opinion on JG. Seriously tho... do you not get tired of it? Saying the same stuff over and over in every thread? No disrespect intended.
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Doubt it. He seems to get off on repeating the same argument in every thread that even tangentially mentions JG. He’ll either be puffing his chest out about he was right about JG throughout the 2019 season (if JG continues to struggle) or pointing out all the qualifiers he used in his arguments as reasons why he wasn’t really wrong (if JG takes a nice step forward).
 
#68
#68
chargervol said:
He's said he loves to debate so probably not.

Guarantano has won me over, same as any player that leaves it all on the field. But the 1 thing that 100% agree with sjt on is that any critique, or mention of an area that he needs to improve, is automatically labeled as "hate".

His rabid fans say "of course he could improve" but as soon as someone picks an area to improve upon, they automatically throw any and everyone around JG under the bus and never admit a single flaw.
That's not a fb player, that's a demi-god 😂

Thankfully message boards don't mean squat and hopefully JG is working to improve in those areas and not buying the deity status placed upon him by several.
Ftr, my guess is that he's much more realistic than those posters and actually admits and works on those areas.
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Yep, he'd argue with a fence post then pull it up and argue with the hole.

What exactly does "get behind and support JG" mean, on a message board? Good thing there are really only about 5-6 that really get butthurt if JG is criticized at all.
 
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#69
#69
Behr said:
Yep, he'd argue with a fence post then pull it up and argue with the hole.

What exactly does "get behind and support JG" mean, on a message board? Good thing there are really only about 5-6 that really get butthurt if JG is criticized at all.
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Did you make that up? 🤣 Don’t care either way...but did you?
1553611217305.gif
 
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#70
#70
Darth_Shiveman said:
Doubt it. He seems to get off on repeating the same argument in every thread that even tangentially mentions JG. He’ll either be puffing his chest out about he was right about JG throughout the 2019 season (if JG continues to struggle) or pointing out all the qualifiers he used in his arguments as reasons why he wasn’t really wrong (if JG takes a nice step forward).
Click to expand...

Haha, the one thing about sjt you can count on, like bet the house on....no matter what happens with JG, sjt will make sure everybody knows that "some of us have been saying that since 2017 and we got attacked for it".
 
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